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Post by amalec on Sept 24, 2015 12:47:35 GMT -7
I've been struggling with the RCTM bouldering program a bit, with poor improvement overall. (To be clear, it's hard to tell absolutely -- I've got a Bishop trip lined up for December that will be a good annual test on the same problems, but I'm making my judgement on gym climbing and a few outdoor reference problems).
I've noticed that when I back off from the program and concentrate more on getting more bouldering time, I improve (or realize improvement, which is the same thing). I wonder if the RCTM program just doesn't have enough time on wall to realize the benefits of strength/power improvement, or if it's better suited for folks who have a really strong climbing base and simply need focused strength/power improvement. Relative to the sport climbing program, the bouldering program has a lot less time on wall.
For reference:
- I'm not young (45) so stuff comes slowly
- My bouldering is not at a high level (I've done V3-V5 outdoors but am more V1/2 onsight level; gym boulder onsight V3/4 whatever that means)
- I've been doing the RCTM program semi-religiously for about a year -- hard to judge finger strength increases because I've been adjusting the pulley system to make it work better
- Weight has fluctuated a bit, so hard to judge absolutely, but feels like I've gone pretty much sidewise
- With the more recent focus on getting more bouldering time and more attempts in, I've improved (as judged by being able to, e.g., do gym V4s for multiple repeats -- and yes, I'm aware of how hard it is to judge consistency there).
Outdoors has been pretty nasty, but I'd like to go back to one of my reference problems and see if the "accumulate volume" approach has led to outdoor improvement as well.
I'm thinking that at my strength and experience level, alternating a finger strength cycle with a bouldering focused cycle, prioritizing volume and power more or less equally, might be better.
Very much welcome thoughts, curses at my apostasy, etc.
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Post by brendann on Sept 24, 2015 19:19:43 GMT -7
I think you are right that you need more mileage, especially outdoors.
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Post by David on Sept 28, 2015 10:02:09 GMT -7
Amalec-
I'm not sure if you have been climbing for a long time or not, but it sounds like you benefit more from increased technique and general volume. I think you have to take each training program with a grain of salt and adapt it based on what you think your specific needs are. I think in general the Anderson brother's programs are geared towards improvement for experienced climbers, especially those who have climbed a lot outdoors.
I think your thoughts are good to alternate finger strength and bouldering. Certainly you could benefit from strength gains, it just might not translate to the rock immediately. Also, if you have a trip planned to Bishop you should think about what the climbing is like there. Especially at the Buttermilks, you will be crimping a lot so when doing bouldering sessions (at the gym or outdoors) you should emphasize small, sharp crimps with technical feet. The Happies/Sads are a more gymnastic with generally better holds, especially pockets so if you want to climb there you could emphasize that during your sessions. Also, both areas are sharp so if you have the chance to condition your skin by climbing outside at your home areas that will serve you well.
Personally, I have climbed for about 10 years, mostly outdoors. I have benefited greatly from reducing my time bouldering at the gym or outdoors and focusing on specific strengths that I need to improve. I have added extra weightlifting that the Andersons don't prescribe along with their cycle of hangboarding, campusing, power endurance, etc and I have seen definite gains, which is really exciting. One message the Anderson's emphasize in their book is that their program is a general guideline and there is not a "one size fits all" routine. Your program should be tailored to your specific goals and no two programs will be alike. I hope this is helpful! and if you don't climb as well as you hoped in Bishop, you can always soak it off in the hot springs.
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Post by slimshaky on Sept 28, 2015 13:48:35 GMT -7
this is a very good question, and i always have to come to terms with it when i am bouldering/climbing at the gym (which is often, because i do it for warm-ups and for movement work). i feel like i am definitely improving outdoors on a fairly continuous path. after not climbing at all this spring, i was able to send a dozen routes in the 12c to 13a range this summer in a fairly limited number of days. this is by far the fastest that i have been able to put routes down of these grades. so, i am very confident that my training from the spring paid off.
however, in the gym i don't ever seem to improve. i have been bouldering (as opposed to roped climbing) in there fairly exclusively this year. i do it for my warmups when i have HB, campus, or system board workouts scheduled. i also use it for movement training, limit bouldering, pyramids, etc. i put a decent amount of effort into it, so i would think that i would improve.
there are literally V3's that i feel i would never be able to do, regardless of how many times i tried them. i'm not really sure what the deal is, i can't really figure it out. i equate V3 to upper 5.11, and i feel pretty confident that there aren't too many 11's out there that i can't do (assuming adequate protection, etc). then, on the flip side, there will be V5's that i can get first go. i have even done a couple V6's first go. then, back to the other flip side - i feel there is no way in hell i will ever be able to send any V7 in the gym. ever. i have checked out quite a few and i can never even get my feet off the ground. i have no idea how people do it.
the other night i roped up in the gym. i was kind of psyched to see how i would do. this last month i have sent a bunch of tough routes outside. i got my ass handed to me. i went 0/4 on easy 11's. there was a 10c i almost pitched off (the only reason i got it was that i absolutely refused to fall on a 10 in the gym). it was a brutal night, i was so bummed.
then i sent 4 routes in the 12a to 12c range this weekend (outside). several of these were more of the style of the gym bouldering routes that i can't seem to do, ie open handed, steep compression, foot jessery, double knee pad wearing, greasy kid stuff. it was/is so puzzling.
anyway, my advice is to not let your gym performance predict how you will climb outside. i know this is so hard to do - it is really frustrating to not climb well at the gym. it is so easy to make the mistake of treating it as a benchmark/performance sort of thing instead of what it is - training.
also, when you do climb outside it is important to realize that it will take a bit of time/routes to start getting dialed in. don't let this frustrate you. try to stay relaxed and methodically work the kinks out. over the years, as you do this many times it gets easier each time (although it is still frustrating).
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Post by slimshaky on Sept 28, 2015 13:56:43 GMT -7
also, i should point out another thing. i am 40, so learning how to do the 'new fangled' bouldering style is pretty brutal. there are quite a few problems that i look at, and immediately realize that a grenade would go off in my shoulders if i tried it. a lot of the problems really require momentum or certain types of movement that aren't really ingrained in my climbing arsenal.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 28, 2015 14:25:39 GMT -7
this is a very good question, and i always have to come to terms with it when i am bouldering/climbing at the gym (which is often, because i do it for warm-ups and for movement work). i feel like i am definitely improving outdoors on a fairly continuous path. after not climbing at all this spring, i was able to send a dozen routes in the 12c to 13a range this summer in a fairly limited number of days. this is by far the fastest that i have been able to put routes down of these grades. so, i am very confident that my training from the spring paid off. however, in the gym i don't ever seem to improve. i have been bouldering (as opposed to roped climbing) in there fairly exclusively this year. i do it for my warmups when i have HB, campus, or system board workouts scheduled. i also use it for movement training, limit bouldering, pyramids, etc. i put a decent amount of effort into it, so i would think that i would improve. there are literally V3's that i feel i would never be able to do, regardless of how many times i tried them. i'm not really sure what the deal is, i can't really figure it out. i equate V3 to upper 5.11, and i feel pretty confident that there aren't too many 11's out there that i can't do (assuming adequate protection, etc). then, on the flip side, there will be V5's that i can get first go. i have even done a couple V6's first go. then, back to the other flip side - i feel there is no way in hell i will ever be able to send any V7 in the gym. ever. i have checked out quite a few and i can never even get my feet off the ground. i have no idea how people do it. the other night i roped up in the gym. i was kind of psyched to see how i would do. this last month i have sent a bunch of tough routes outside. i got my ass handed to me. i went 0/4 on easy 11's. there was a 10c i almost pitched off (the only reason i got it was that i absolutely refused to fall on a 10 in the gym). it was a brutal night, i was so bummed. then i sent 4 routes in the 12a to 12c range this weekend (outside). several of these were more of the style of the gym bouldering routes that i can't seem to do, ie open handed, steep compression, foot jessery, double knee pad wearing, greasy kid stuff. it was/is so puzzling. anyway, my advice is to not let your gym performance predict how you will climb outside. i know this is so hard to do - it is really frustrating to not climb well at the gym. it is so easy to make the mistake of treating it as a benchmark/performance sort of thing instead of what it is - training. One solution to all of this is to just build your own gym, with realistic wall angles and hold shapes, and then set routes that climb like the real world. It's done wonders for my "gym" bouldering (but I still get my ass kicked at the commercial gyms)  |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 28, 2015 14:26:20 GMT -7
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Post by amalec on Sept 28, 2015 15:15:33 GMT -7
Generally good stuff. Some more background:
- I've been climbing for ~4-5 years (well, more like 35 years, but there was a 28 year hiatus)
- I've got religious on technique a while back, and have been applying the exercises from the self-coached climber for a while.
- The improvement that I see when I accumulate volume on the wall is relative to reference gym problems
I do have some outdoor reference problems close to home, and progress there has been sideways as well.
As I noted, I'll judge progress based on the Bishop trip (I've got a few problems I was working on last year to re-test against). Progress at Mortar Rock in the Bay Area (back yard) has been mostly sideways.
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Post by amalec on Sept 28, 2015 15:16:52 GMT -7
Also: I desperately need finger strength. Just questioning how to balance that with enough actual climbing time to improve...
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Post by jessebruni on Oct 2, 2015 9:10:41 GMT -7
HEY!!! I resemble that comment! |
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Post by Chris W on Oct 2, 2015 15:50:05 GMT -7
Also: I desperately need finger strength. Just questioning how to balance that with enough actual climbing time to improve.. Amalec
I feel that I can't religiously follow the training plan because I don't have enough time for the training laid out. I'm lucky to get more than one hour to train at any given time. I warm up as well as I can, then throw my heart and soul [and time] into the "main" activity of the session. If you're following the full time recommendations for the limit bouldering and campus sessions, then I believe there is more than adequate time on the wall.
One year may not be enough time to see significant improvement. If you keep working at it though, you will improve. Do you have any other stats you can pull from? Get your hangboard set up correctly. Call me a sucker, but I bought the full pully kit from Trango and it works quite well. It would be worth spending the money on this if it can give you consistent results.
I feel similar to the other guys with regards to gym climbing. I was out of town several weeks ago and trained at a gym, and I honestly don't know how folks do it. Aside from being greasy, crowded, noisy, distracting and terrible, the problems were either dangerous, inadequate, tweaky, unrealistic, or hard to follow. Plus, all the feet were HUGE! I use e-grips sandstone chips for footholds on my wall and they're the smallest footholds I can find. Even these are larger than the feet around my home climbing and bouldering areas.
I'm not as old as you, but at 32, I'm getting older every day. It's really important to eat well and get adequate sleep. But I've got a pregnant wife and little babies...
I also know that it's really really really hard to not see improvement when you're training. Hang in there; keep working and have faith in the system and yourself.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Oct 2, 2015 16:45:11 GMT -7
...at 32, I'm getting older every day...
What was happening when you were 16?! |
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Post by Chris W on Oct 3, 2015 3:17:48 GMT -7
When I was 16, I was bullet proof, ageless, strong as an ox, incredibly good looking and knew everything  . Then I woke up one day with a real job, back ache, bald, broke, and several kids. All the intelligence of my teen years had passed through my DNA into my children and time seemed to be my most precious commodity. What happened?!? |
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Post by amalec on Oct 3, 2015 8:49:47 GMT -7
The good news it that when you get past 40, the aging slows down. The bad news is that you are over 40...
I think the net of this thread is that I'm in a strength cycle now, and when I finish, I'm going to get more climbing time in than prescribed in the bouldering program, and see how it goes at the local bouldering areas and Bishop.
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Post by tedwelser on Oct 3, 2015 14:19:58 GMT -7
The good news it that when you get past 40, the aging slows down. The bad news is that you are over 40... I think the net of this thread is that I'm in a strength cycle now, and when I finish, I'm going to get more climbing time in than prescribed in the bouldering program, and see how it goes at the local bouldering areas and Bishop. A couple questions: (1) Which grips are you using for your HB routine, and are you using a half crimp or full crimp on any of them? I ask simply because I think the number one thing that will increase your bouldering performance is increasing your capacity to hang with greater than body weight while using a crimp grip. (2) Are your grips by weight combinations specific to the challenges in the boulder problems that you want to do? On steep problems deeper crimps with more weight will likely be more specific than shallow crimps with less than bodyweight. I am in my power stage now, and I am doing limit bouldering but I make sure that I do some weighted hangs from the RPTC using both a semi crimp and a half crimp on the small variable depth edge. I am doing my primary limit problems on a 55 degree wall, and I have open hand problems and crimp problems. The half crimp and semi crimp were part of my standard intermediate HB workout, but I also did 2 sets of max hangs on each to make sure I was using them with greater than bodyweight (to make sure they were specific to my steep problem goals). In winter/spring I had erred on the side of shallower holds with less than bodyweight. This really helped my face climbing but my bouldering got worse. (3) Are you continuing to stimulate those exact grips during your power stages? Previously my power training was oriented towards semi crimp and open hand. On a campus board I only use a semi crimp so I mostly cut out the campus board in favor of limit bouldering, especially symmetrical problems on a steep wall with bad feet. I also use the HB as a sort of simple limit problem with greater than bodyweight hangs. Although I just added the greater than bodyweight-half crimp grip to my workout this fall, I am clearly stronger than last spring on crimps during my limit bouldering sessions. I had to invent new problems that used crimpier holds. I now have problems that are 3-5 moves long and rely entirely on crimp grips on the 55 degree wall, which is something that I could not come close to doing before. I mainly sport climb, but I hope to be able to boulder some this fall, and a bunch this winter so hopefully I will see some progress there. |
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. Then I woke up one day with a real job, back ache, bald, broke, and several kids. All the intelligence of my teen years had passed through my DNA into my children and time seemed to be my most precious commodity. What happened?!?