tks
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Posts: 3
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Post by tks on Aug 6, 2015 12:42:01 GMT -7
Just finished last HB workout for this phase. This was my third HB phase. I've been using the beginner scheme, with the following grips and average weights: Warmup Jug - Bodyweight Large Edge: -35 Lbs Wide Pinch: -35 Lbs MRP: -50 lbs IMR: -35 Small Edge: -40 Lbs Sloper: -35 Lbs
This was the worst of the three HB phases I've done. I made next to no progress in any of the grips. The pinch and the MRP both completely escape me. On workout 3 or 4 i nearly completed all the reps at a given weight, then on the next workout I failed on reps 4, 5, and 6!
I felt ok on the large edge and the IMR, but that was about it.
I don't know what happened, but this was a major disappointment compared to the last two phases. Who knows? This was my first time trying these workouts in the morning (beating the heat at 6:00 am) - maybe that's a mistake?
Maybe it's time to move to the intermediate workout - maybe I'm not getting enough reps?
Any thoughts?
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 6, 2015 14:05:03 GMT -7
There's no doubt summer is the root cause. But you raise a great question, is it better to wake up early to beat the heat? In my experience it's a good idea to wake up early to a point, but only if you can do it such that you are awake enough to have a good workout. The best way to go is to train yourself to wake up earlier so that you still feel "normal" at 6am (or whatever). I don't go that far. I try to get up around 6, and then I do a lot of activity to help myself really wake up (first thing I go for a brisk walk, drink a lot of fluids). I then start my workout around 7:30 or so. If I try to start my workout right when I wake up it'll be a disaster (same goes for rock climbing). Also if you're regularly waking up at a given time, and you only wake up early on your HB days, it won't work very well IME.
Are you tracking the temp/humidity in your hangboard area?
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Post by daustin on Aug 6, 2015 16:12:01 GMT -7
Looking at your average weights across grips, one thing that jumps out to me is that there isn't as much spread as I'd expect between "hard" and "easy" grips. I realize that different people have different strengths/weaknesses and there's no general rule of thumb for how strong an individual should on Grip A relative to Grip B, BUT…
For instance, I find it surprising that there's only a 5 lbs difference between your avg weight for the large edge vs. small edge, and I'm maybe even more surprised that there's no difference between the large edge and wide pinch. This makes me wonder if you're setting your baseline too high for the "hard" grips (the small edge and wide pinch in this case) so that you plateau too quickly. I had a similar issue with the wide pinch when I first started training it -- progress was very, very hard to come by. My next cycle I set my baseline much lower than I thought would be necessary, lower than any other grip in fact. Then, my progress from workout to workout was steady and I actually set a new PR, surpassing my previous cycle's best, with relative ease.
To Mark's point, summer conditions can put pretty miserable constraints on training, and if you aren't able to correct for the conditions (i.e., train in a cool, dry environment at a normal time for you) then you should plan to correct the intensity to accommodate for the shitty conditions, and I'd look toward your baseline on the "hard" grips as a starting point.
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Post by Chris W on Aug 8, 2015 3:25:19 GMT -7
Mark wrote in another thread somewhere that he thinks the summer HB differences are related to more than just temperature and humidity. Some theory about increased skin permeability or pores in the summer compared to the winter. I noticed during my summer transition HB phase that I performed poorly, on paper, regardless of the temp. My barn could be 65 degrees on a really good day in the morning or 90 degrees in the afternoon and I still had similar results.
Regarding training early:
I alternate weeks between a morning and an evening shift at work. On the weeks that I work mornings, I train very early (up at 04:30 and try to start warm-up at 05:00). These are some of my most productive sessions since no one else is awake to vie for my attention at that hour. I've been doing that since I was a young teenager so I'm use to it. A few things that I find help an early AM workout:
1) Prep the night before. I lay out everything I need, including clothes, gear, training log (my computer), breakfast foods and dishes, etc. 2) Go to bed at a good time. For an 04:30 wake-up, I get the kids to bed and try to be sure that any rowdiness with the missus' is complete for lights out at 21:00. 3) I drink a beverage with caffeine the second I hit the kitchen to give it time to percolate through my system before I start.
I still find it hard at times to get moving in the morning, especially if it is super cold outside. I just do the best I can with what I have available.
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tks
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by tks on Aug 10, 2015 10:36:16 GMT -7
Thanks guys, this is great input and insight - much appreciated!
Daustin - interesting points. My initial reaction is that even though i've been climbing for a while (10 yrs off and on), most of my experience is with moderate trad on granite. I think my hand strength in most grips looks fairly un-trained compared to a sport climber / boulderer / seasoned hang boarder. The only difference is that in the last 18 months i've used a home board alot, and the holds line up to a IMR grip alot.
just a thought...
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Post by Will S on Aug 13, 2015 6:46:31 GMT -7
There are multiple studies in strength training research that show most people are stronger in the late afternoon than in the early a.m.
Peak daily strength (this is from memory, I read these years ago), tended to be around 4-6pm.
And even if you get up early to beat the temps, relative humidity is at a peak right before dawn (all other things being equal..no storm rolling in etc).
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Post by slimshaky on Aug 13, 2015 9:00:15 GMT -7
i have always been an 'evening' workout sort of person. sometimes during my HB phase i might line up some morning workouts, usually to 'buy' an extra workout by using 1.5 days rest, instead of the usual 2 days rest. mark's tips are dead on, in my experience. if i wake up and go pretty much straight to the workout i get totally slaughtered.
if i wake up, take a nice warm shower, eat some breakfast and a cup of coffee, chill for 30 minutes to an hour - i usually have a pretty good workout. for all of these reasons, i tend to only schedule the morning workouts for a weekend day, often if the weather looks crappy. i try to avoid these on work days, unless for some odd reason i am rolling into work at noon (ie flying out for work in the afternoon or working an odd shift).
on the other hand, i work with some folks who are hard-core morning workout types - so it is probably fairly dependent on the person.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 13, 2015 10:02:24 GMT -7
There are multiple studies in strength training research that show most people are stronger in the late afternoon than in the early a.m. Peak daily strength (this is from memory, I read these years ago), tended to be around 4-6pm.
This is a really interesting point that raises the worthy question, when is the best time to train? There are a number of factors...
1) I've seen the same research and I have no reason to doubt it. So let's assume afternoon is the best time to perform against an absolute standard (as opposed to say, competing against other humans where performance is not quantified, ie, an indoor bouldering comp, where all contestants have the same advantage/disadvantage of time of day). So for example, if you are trying to break a world record or set a personal best in a quantified activity (like attempting 1-5-9 on the campus board), you should try to do it in the afternoon. I would say climbing rocks qualifies as performing against an absolute standard too, but there are other factors that might overwhelm the circadian rhythm consideration (see #3). However, all this may be irrelevant if you want to know when is the best time to train. The goal of training is to improve, not to set a record, so the best time to train would be whatever time of day results in the greatest improvement. These studies do not answer that question to my knowledge. My general philosophy is that if you put more into your training, you get more out of it, and so it helps to approach training like performance (take it seriously, get enough sleep, eat right, do it at the optimal time of day, etc). If you buy into that philosophy (which is contrary to Dave MacLeod's that 9 of 10 climbers are making a mistake by trying to perform all the time) then perhaps you should train at whatever time of day produces the best results (the afternoon).
2) As Will pointed out, humidity is often higher in the morning. Of course, temperature is lower. I think it helps a lot to train when the environmental conditions are as close as possible to optimal (going back to the philosophy of taking your training seriously in order to get the most out of it). Really, the goal should be to train when conditions are the most consistent. That enables you to accurately predict the correct resistance for exercises, and so approach failure at the optimal TUT. For example, if it's 60 deg and 20% humidity for your first 5 workouts, then suddenly it goes to 85 deg and 50% for workout #6, you will get destroyed and the workout could be a "total loss" (unless you're really good at adjusting the resistance on the fly). Optimal conditions will vary somewhat depending on where you live, and the time of year. For example, where I live, in the summer, conditions are far better in the morning since we routinely get late afternoon thunderstorms that cause a humidity spike.
3) As I hinted earlier, our performances usually occur on the rocks, where other factors besides circadian rhythm may dictate the optimal time of day. If your project faces west, you may need to start warming up at 8am to get your redpoint attempts in before sun hit at noon. Often environmental conditions on the rock will greatly overwhelm any circadian rhythm considerations (though maybe not in winter, when cold weather is abundant). What does this have to do with training? Other research shows that you can train your body to perform better at non-optimal times of day by training at those times. So if you know you will attempt your outdoor project at 9am, it's probably best to do your indoor training at 9am too. This raises another question, how long (in terms of weeks) do I need to train at 9am to perform well at 9am? I don't know. It may depend on your age. It takes me about 2-3 weeks to train my body to climb well in the morning.
So in conclusion, if/when you can control environmental factors throughout the day, it may be best to complete your Strength Phase workouts in the afternoon, and then gradually shift your Power Phase workouts to whatever time of day you plan to perform on the rock. If you can't control environmental factors, I would recommend a compromise between optimal conditions and a time of day when you feel good enough to produce a quality effort (considering that you can do things to control your environment, and you can adjust somewhat to early training sessions with practice). So the optimal time may vary from person to person and season to season. Experiment and see what happens. I do HB workouts around mid-day in the winter, and about 2 hours after I wake up in the summer.
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Post by tedwelser on Aug 13, 2015 13:42:44 GMT -7
There are multiple studies in strength training research that show most people are stronger in the late afternoon than in the early a.m. Peak daily strength (this is from memory, I read these years ago), tended to be around 4-6pm.
This is a really interesting point that raises the worthy question, when is the best time to train? There are a number of factors...
. . .
So in conclusion, if/when you can control environmental factors throughout the day, it may be best to complete your Strength Phase workouts in the afternoon, and then gradually shift your Power Phase workouts to whatever time of day you plan to perform on the rock. If you can't control environmental factors, I would recommend a compromise between optimal conditions and a time of day when you feel good enough to produce a quality effort (considering that you can do things to control your environment, and you can adjust somewhat to early training sessions with practice). So the optimal time may vary from person to person and season to season. Experiment and see what happens. I do HB workouts around mid-day in the winter, and about 2 hours after I wake up in the summer.
Hey Mark- So this post is an excellent example of a great insight that appears in this forum, but does not *yet* appear in the RCTM. What do you think would be the best way to work towards either a second edition, or to the "Advanced Considerations" of the RCTM?
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Post by daustin on Aug 13, 2015 14:08:27 GMT -7
This discussion is making me see the bright side of having a relatively inflexible training schedule (relative to work/other commitments) -- I don't have to bother thinking about any of this! One question I'd have regarding the research Will S and Mark reference about optimal timing being in the afternoon -- were the subjects of the research professional/full-time athletes or Average Joe 9-5ers? I'd expect that training/performing after a full workday could have a significant negative impact on strength, but would be curious to see if the research addresses this. Personally, I've found it much more difficult to do HB workouts after work than before work, even though I'm not at all a morning person -- the mental drain of a typical workday makes it really difficult to summon the effort required to have a good HB workout. On the other hand, I don't have as much trouble training power or PE after work, as I feel like the additional time spent actually climbing gives my brain a bit more time to shake off the post-work fatigue.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 13, 2015 14:34:53 GMT -7
Hey Mark- So this post is an excellent example of a great insight that appears in this forum, but does not *yet* appear in the RCTM. What do you think would be the best way to work towards either a second edition, or to the "Advanced Considerations" of the RCTM? We actually touch on this (VERY) briefly on page 74. But to your larger point, I think the best way would be for my publisher to bring a huge bag of money over and beg us to write a second edition I wouldn't hold my breath on that one though.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 13, 2015 14:48:30 GMT -7
This discussion is making me see the bright side of having a relatively inflexible training schedule (relative to work/other commitments) -- I don't have to bother thinking about any of this! One question I'd have regarding the research Will S and Mark reference about optimal timing being in the afternoon -- were the subjects of the research professional/full-time athletes or Average Joe 9-5ers? I'd expect that training/performing after a full workday could have a significant negative impact on strength, but would be curious to see if the research addresses this. Personally, I've found it much more difficult to do HB workouts after work than before work, even though I'm not at all a morning person -- the mental drain of a typical workday makes it really difficult to summon the effort required to have a good HB workout. On the other hand, I don't have as much trouble training power or PE after work, as I feel like the additional time spent actually climbing gives my brain a bit more time to shake off the post-work fatigue. Most studies are done on college students/athletes for practical reasons. I don't know the answer in this case, but I really doubt it was done on weekend warriors.
I'm in the same boat as you. I generally feel lethargic in the afternoon. HBing would be really rough, but I can usually get a decent bouldering or climbing session at that time (I've sent plenty of outdoor projects in the later afternoon/evening, although it's by far my least favorite time to climb). If you have an extended warm up it's easier to overcome the lethargy, which is probably more psychological than physical (depending on the demands of your job). I often have power workouts that start out terrible, but if I take my time and keep trying hard I can crush by the end. With HBing you're on a pretty regimented schedule once you start, and you want to perform well from the get go. If you were forced to train late, I would suggest using a longer warmup in the hopes of overcoming those issues.
Anyway, I think there is an age element to it. When I first started regular climbing in my early 20's I went to the gym in the late evening, and it worked fine, but I had a lot more energy then in general. As I've gotten older I find I'm much better before lunch (and when I eat relative to exercise effects my energy levels significantly). If you're a parent of a young kid, you're useless most of the time, so you really need to train when you feel the best. My work schedule is flexible enough that I have the luxury of picking whatever time I think will produce the best workout. For me that's a compromise between when conditions are the best, when my motivation is highest, and when I feel the best.
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Post by Chris W on Aug 13, 2015 20:37:04 GMT -7
Try kids, pleural. Another reason I train before the crack of dawn. Early training is better than no training.
Very similar to daustin, I feel pretty drained at the end of the day as well, though my job is not particularly physical in nature.
I will say that, while I do train (and climb) quite well in the early AM (yes, I'm aware that that's a bit odd), I really notice a difference in my Power workouts. It's much easier for me to get warmed up and "perform" well while training power in the afternoon. I believe this is directly related to the neuromuscular demands of power training compared to all the other phases.
For what it's worth, I also warm up, on average, MUCH less than what is advised in the RCTM. This is in part due to lack of time, lack of energy for prolonged sessions, and lack of need. My warm ups increase if I'm cold, training power, or if I'm cold and it's very early (10 degrees and 04:30).
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Post by Lundy on Aug 14, 2015 5:24:20 GMT -7
HAHA... Only a doctor mis-spells plural as pleural. That was brilliant.
I also have multiple kids, including a two month old, and 5a is the only option, so you just get after it with whatever you've got... I do a lot more warming up than is recommended in RCTM, though -- opposite of Chris. I think this is what gets me ready for the really hard campus or HB work starting around 6.
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Post by rob on Aug 14, 2015 6:53:27 GMT -7
I have a 1 year old but im definitely not a morning person, I do almost all my workouts post 6pm. Sometimes (well more often than not) I don't even start my HB workouts till 8:30pm when the little one's all sorted and asleep. I don't notice much difference between say at 6pm and 9pm, but I usually suck if I train in the mornings. Yet I never climb outside past 8:30... I guess I'm limiting myself in that respect, but not sure its worth getting up at 6am for the tiny improvement. I think as mark mentioned, maybe worth doing PE workouts at more applicable times, for me anyway. HAHA... Only a doctor mis-spells plural as pleural. That was brilliant. You're a doctor Chris? What's your specialty?
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