samb
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Post by samb on May 13, 2015 10:30:00 GMT -7
First some background to my question:
I have been climbing seriously for about 2 years now, and training seriously for about 1 year. My home crag is Smith Rock. Sport climbing at Smith (and elsewhere while travelling, but mostly smith) is my main focus, and I have seen my strength and technique improve significantly, going from my first 10b redpoint about 2 years ago to my first 12a redpoint in February. While technique and overall climbing ability have played a huge role in this, I have definitely noticed some serious strength and power gains as well. For example, holds on certain routes I simply thought were impossible to hold on to not that long ago I can now generate power off of, etc. On days I can't make it out to Smith I spend a lot of time in the gym ARCing and bouldering for maintenance when not in a training cycle (or as warm up for training). With that said, my question is:
Why am I not improving at bouldering in the gym, and should this be a concern? In the time I have gone up nearly 6 grades sport climbing outside, my indoor bouldering has increased exactly ZERO grades. I can climb nearly every v4 but have only sent around five v5's ever. (I rarely boulder outside). I ask this not because bouldering or indoor climbing is especially important to me, but because it concerns me that I haven't gotten at least a grade or two stronger simply from improved strength and ability. It's obviously not my focus and not what I train for, but I am worried that a major climbing plateau is right around the corner with how big a wall I seem to have hit when it comes to this different style of climbing. I don't know of many 12+ climbers that boulder less than v6 (or way more!), and since that is my goal I get a little worried! Anyone have any thoughts on this, or have similar inconsistencies in progress? Should I ignore what I see inside or is my climbing lacking in some area I am overlooking? Thanks in advance for the help!
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Post by jessebruni on May 13, 2015 12:11:19 GMT -7
Climbing indoors is pretty different from climbing outdoors. I wouldn't worry about it too much. You're obviously getting stronger. It's possible you're getting better at a certain style and not so much others. Perhaps you had a big gap in ability in different styles before and now you're becoming more well rounded. Most climbers that start doing V5's can't do nearly every V4 so I would take that as a good sign that you're getting to be pretty well rounded. For example if you can do V4 on slab, roof, and 45 degree walls then you're pretty solid at the grade all around. Keep training and your indoor grade will go up, and as always try to determine what you're missing and then work on it.
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Post by tedwelser on May 13, 2015 14:06:07 GMT -7
Just to clarify-- were you bouldering V4/5 when you were only redpointing 10B? My guess is that you have improved at both during that time period. But you may well have improved more at routes and with typical Smith features. That is ok, I am sure I would be super inspired by the routes if I lived nearby such that my steep climbing might suffer a bit too. Also, are your best RP at Smith on the more classic Smith style technical face routes like Latin Lover? Or something steeper in the gulleys? I would guess that bouldering indoors will require steeper movement than most of the routes you get on at Smith. You may just have a surplus of technique at the classic Smith angles and challenges?
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samb
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Post by samb on May 13, 2015 14:42:01 GMT -7
Ted, I was bouldering v4 pretty solid from 10b on, and the few 5s I have done have been intermixed since then, rather than all super recently. You are definitely right about getting better at smith style, but I have been climbing a wide range of routes out there (Panic Attack, Toxic, Blue Light Special as well as classic Smith style climbs such as Heinous and Vomit Launch). I am fairly certain I have gotten much stronger physically and it hasn't been all skill development, but you are certainly right that the gym is overall much steeper. The thing is I do boulder in the gym fairly often, at least once a week, so one would think those strengths would start to develop. Jesse thanks for your thoughts, good (and reassuring) points!
A friend of mine hypothesized that finger strength and smith style strength may not be enough to overcome the gymnastic nature and obstacles of indoor climbing, and things like flexibility and excessive power may be what's holding me back indoors. Only one thing to do, keep climbing!
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Post by MarkAnderson on May 13, 2015 14:52:18 GMT -7
Another strike against gym climbing It could be any number of things, but I would bet that: a) the grades in your gym are not consistent (meaning, what is now called V4, might have been V5 or 6 a year ago), and if they are, they aren't linear (meaning the gap between V4 and V5 might be much greater than the gap between V3 and V4). b) the route-setters are differently shaped than you (taller/shorter, longer/shorter arms, etc) c) the holds in your gym are totally unrealistic and enormous, de-emphasizing finger strength while emphasizing massive shoulder and pull strength to span between them d) there are hardly any footholds, and where there are footholds they are likewise enormous, so you can't exploit any footwork improvements you've made. Curious, what gym are we speaking of?
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samb
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Post by samb on May 13, 2015 23:31:48 GMT -7
Mark I think you're on to something. With A: I have a hard time believing I could climb the 4s I climbed this month 2 years ago. Its like V4 has gotten stiffer as I've gotten stronger, keeping itself at my personal limit. V4 to V5 is definitely a huge gap at the Bend Rock Gym. B, C and D are also definitely true. What I've learned in this thread is to not get hung up on numbers in the gym but to just continue pushing myself physically (On routes as similar as possible to outdoor climbing)
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sean
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Post by sean on May 14, 2015 6:22:29 GMT -7
The gyms I typically climb at love those gym-only type of holds. Huge pinches, bowling ball slopers, and weird 3D horns and volumes seem to be all the setters want to use in the bouldering areas. I think it's a combination of not wanting people to get hurt pulling on tiny holds and the gymnastic style of modern day bouldering comps. For instance, they have multiple drive-by's set up now, a move I honestly can't conceive ever being useful on a rope, certainly not at the gunks, my home crag, where reach high and pull hard are almost all you need to get by. I always end up using the hangboards and campus boards for actual strength training (sometimes the harder routes are actually pretty good for finger strength as well) and the bouldering cave for other training stuff (pull power/PE/aggressiveness/etc). Either way, I'm pretty sure my gym bouldering ability hasn't improved in a while, while performance on rock is inching it's way upwards.
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Post by tedwelser on May 14, 2015 8:03:55 GMT -7
Hey Sam- Right on-- well it is clear you are making progress, so keep up the good work.
I think another good litmus test would be to focus on some good outdoor bouldering problems. I think there are some local, and you could also take a trip up to Leavenworth and get on some problems that really inspire you. I find that progress in bouldering often comes from the desire to send things that captivate me and present new challenges. More locally you might also try "Crack Babies" I remember it was pretty bouldery and interesting. A good way to know that you have moved fully into V5 territory is to send bouldery 12b's!
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Post by jonfrisby on May 14, 2015 17:21:29 GMT -7
Hey Mark, I really appreciate you continually pointing out gym climbing's weaknesses. I find that I can do hard gym style problems pretty easily due to carryover shoulder strength from other sports, but focusing on hang boarding, campusing, and the right "kind" of boulders has been great for my perspective and made me become really well-rounded as a climber.
Except slabs.
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Post by slimshaky on May 15, 2015 14:39:46 GMT -7
Another strike against gym climbing It could be any number of things, but I would bet that: a) the grades in your gym are not consistent (meaning, what is now called V4, might have been V5 or 6 a year ago), and if they are, they aren't linear (meaning the gap between V4 and V5 might be much greater than the gap between V3 and V4). b) the route-setters are differently shaped than you (taller/shorter, longer/shorter arms, etc) c) the holds in your gym are totally unrealistic and enormous, de-emphasizing finger strength while emphasizing massive shoulder and pull strength to span between them d) there are hardly any footholds, and where there are footholds they are likewise enormous, so you can't exploit any footwork improvements you've made. Curious, what gym are we speaking of? ha ha, you are probably talking about every gym in america, but i would have guessed that he is talking about movement (if he lived in the front range). i have spent a lot of time bouldering in the gym over the last 10 years or so, and i never really get better at it. at first i thought it was probably because i tend to climb vertical thin routes or crack routes outside. but, then i realized - i have spent a LOT of time bouldering in the gym - why don't i consistently improve? i pretty much boulder at (or below) the same grade i did 10 years ago. (which now that i think about it is the same grade i bouldered at probably 20 years ago...) i think, for me at least, i really don't enjoy the style of climbing that much. i kind of find it morbidly distasteful - kind of like kombucha or some other weird thing people want you to eat/drink because it is supposed to be good for you, but tastes like a porcupine's backside.... mark's list is pretty accurate. for example, consistency of grades... the gym i climb at is so inconsistent at grading that it is absolutely head scratching. for example, they had a v5 and v6 up for about 2 months, and in that time i never fell off of them. i did each of them probably 50 times and went 50/50 on both. then, they put up a v1 (yep, you read that correctly...) in the same exact location, and i have gone probably 15/20 on that thing. i have watched a LOT of folks of varied abilities on that thing and they all have been shocked. (literally every other v1 up currently could be flashed by a 90 year old lady). there was another v2 up on the same wall for 2 months and i am the only person that i ever saw send that thing (i went maybe 5/30 or so on that thing), and the only reason i could get it was being super tall and long reach. there are a couple V3's i can't imagine ever sending. then i flashed 3 v4's one night that were probably in the low V2 range....absolutely bizarre... i readily admit and understand that grades are subjective, blah blah blah, but it is pretty silly when super high end routesetters can't grade things within a couple grades. getting back to how this relates to climbing. for me, i realize that it is important that i keep the gym climbing completely compartmentalized from my real climbing - they are just 2 absolutely different things (even gym climbing and gym bouldering tend to be very different). i realize that how i am climbing indoors has absolutely no relation to how i am climbing outdoors (and just as importantly vice versa). i have to admit - it is mentally kind of tough when i see an awkard pudgy teen girl flash a problem that i can't send for the life of me. but, that being said i have often seen the same people struggle on routes outside that i would have thought would be a hike for them. in the gym they are really puzzled that i can't hike the problem they just sent. it's all just different. on a side note; if there are any routesetters out there who want un-asked for opinions on problem setting, here are a couple of my biggest pet peeves (the kind of things that make problems taste like kombucha...) 1) weird, off balance dynos at the very top - this might be fun if you are 15, but it loses its appeal quickly thereafter. 2) putting big volumes right in the flight path of cruxy throws on routes in the v3-v6 range. the gym i climb at absolutely LOVES doing this, it drives me crazy. you won't see them do it on their v10-v13 problems though... i wonder why??? 3) monster dyno moves where the holds are huge and 6 feet apart.... on a V1 or V2..... hmmm, the average v2 climber is going to learn a lot from this sick problem....
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Post by MarkAnderson on May 15, 2015 18:28:46 GMT -7
LOL Slim! I think the underlying problem is that, generally speaking, routesetters are too strong and too young. Just because someone is a good climber doesn't mean they will be a good setter.
Most of these guys are bouldering in the double-digit range, while setting in the V0-V5 range. That's stupid. Just get some V5 climbers to set in that range! Their sense of grades will be far better calibrated, and they will understand the skills and limitations of the people they're setting for. A gym should have a variety of setters, in terms of gender, age, ability and size. ETs setters are almost all the same wingspan, gender and age, and you can tell in the setting.
The age thing has to do with experience and taste. Many routesetters are high school or college types (because they will work for peanuts). Often these climbers are not well-traveled, and they have a limited set of movement skills which limits their imagination when it comes to setting*. The only way they know of to increase difficulty is to make the moves bigger and bigger. The taste aspect speaks to slim's comment about awkward dynos way up high. Its funny, but the gym management seems to want to cater to mid-life professional types and soccer moms, while the setters set for 17 year old bro bras who sneak in through the emergency exit. I don't get why management and the people who actually operate the facility can't ever get on the same page. I think the membership needs to complain more and louder.
The relative lack of realistic holds in the market place doesn't help. Realistic holds are certainly available, but gyms don't buy them (and the setters typically drive the buying decisions). "They aren't fun", at least not for the bro bras.
(*my all time favorite setter is my friend Lee Brinkerhoff. He sets for national level comps, but I got to know his handiwork while climbing at Stone Age in ABQ. He has literally traveled the world. You name it, he's climbed there, and he's a phenomenal climber, the best onsight climber I've ever watched climb. He has a great sense for movement and flow and that I think is what makes his setting so good. That and tons of practice. He's only a couple years younger than me so he's been at it a while.)
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RichF
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Post by RichF on May 16, 2015 14:53:40 GMT -7
Great thread! After a winter of indoor bouldering (unfortunately stretching into a spring of indoor bouldering due to all the rain ), I'll be interested to see what will happen when I head back outside. I'm fully prepared to not climb particularly well, like previous years when I head back outside, but am optimistic this year will be different. This winter was my first formal RCTM training cycle, and I can feel the difference in finger strength, contact strength, and overall power. In addition, I feel like I was using the gym much more intelligently thanks to everything I learned in the book, as well as in the articles/forums here. This is my first post to the forum, but I've been lurking here for a bit - reading the backlog of forum threads and archived articles. Mark's article bouldering for power really helped me. Power has always been my weakness. I can get up low 5.12s that don't actually have a 5.12 crux move, just multiple hard 11 sections. But running into a real 5.12 crux shuts me down. During previous winters in the gym I avoided the slightly overhanging crimpy routes that were most like what I climb outside. Having sustained finger injuries on them in years past, I felt that getting hurt in the gym was not worth the risk. But the Andersons' argument for focused training instead of just climbing (the fantastic analogy of random exercises in a weight room) caused me to rethink how I use the gym. I've been seeking out the indoor boulder problems that mimic what I want to climb outside. The problems are often somewhat fingery, but I feel that I have worked up to that on the hangboard, and have a good sense for what is reasonable to attempt without risk of injury. There are plenty of boulder problems that don't really relate to my goal outdoor routes. I climb a lot of them as well (except the full cave-dweller roof routes), but I guess I don't expect a direct correlation to my outdoor climbing. I'm still building core and shoulder strength that doesn't come naturally for me, and getting a decent forearm pump. Also, the dynamic nature of most indoor bouldering is helping to make me climb more aggresively and dynamically - something my trad climber background was sorely lacking. But I often find that the set problems don't really have what I'm looking for. When that's the case, I'll usually just head up to the systems wall and create my own problems that target my weaknesses. Or sometimes, I work on sections of problems that contain a few hard moves that I like, and don't bother with the dyno finish, off pinches, with a giant sloper volume in the way (one of my biggest pet peeves too!). Now, if only this rain would let up, I could get outside and see if these theories actually led to an improvement on real rock!
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russ
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Post by russ on Jun 19, 2015 10:53:59 GMT -7
Thought of this comment when I saw Earth Treks' instagram post. It really highlights how big commercial gyms are explicitly trying to foster the connection between American-Ninja Warrior-type gymnastics and gym climbing, versus simulating real rock. Though I would like to push back gently against some of the gym-bashing; while some gyms are skewed too much towards vertical parkour or 12-year-old birthday parties, many others do a pretty good job of finding a good balance, at least to this mid-30's professional type. While I aspire to climb outside more, the vast majority of my climbing time ends up being pulling on plastic (6 hour drive to the NRG, etc). I have adopted the RPTM system in order to improve both on real rock and in the gym (for the record, the RPTM been great for both increasing my finger strength and healing a pesky lumbrical strain in my hand!). I want my gym to be a training venue, but also a place my wife and I can go together to have fun and blow off steam, since that's really my main goal for climbing, inside or out. I actually like the balance struck at my local gym, the ET near Baltimore. They have a nice training area upstairs for some system board work, campusing, or hangboards (they just put up a RPTC!), while downstairs has a mix of fun, but totally unrealistic climbing ( example) and some more realistic problems (and the head setter, Matt Bosley, seems to be better than most at accommodating different body geometries). Anyways, just my two cents. -Russ
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otis
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Post by otis on Jun 19, 2015 12:06:21 GMT -7
I've been setting for a little over 10 years and climbing for about 13. As a long-term setter, a few points from my perspective.
I think the best gyms have a mixture of realistic problems to climb/train on and the gymnastics/ninja warrior stuff that has become popular. Overall, I tend to prefer more realistic climbs and that is mostly what I set, but every now and then, I'll come up with the cool 360 double dyno that people love. As long as I don't feel like I am going to kill myself or someone else with the problem, having a few in a commercial gym tends to be good for business.
I agree with Mark's assessment that too many modern gyms spend big money on feature holds that aren't realistic. I prefer the clean classic shapes produced by Teknik, Kilter, E-grips and Enix. However, a lot of customers love the funky looking alien thing, so gyms buy them.
As for grades, they are the biggest headache for route setters. I'll set something that I think is a great route, but slightly sandbag the grade and people won't climb it. On the other hand, if I set an average route, but rate it soft, and people will love it. The other big issue is that it is far easier to hit a target grade on a long route than it is on a boulder problem. I'll set a V5 and have half the people tell me it is soft and the other half tell me it is hard. There just aren't enough moves to average the problem out. So a particular sequence that feels easy to you, might feel really hard to someone else. With that said, a gym V5 should feel similar to the other V5's in the gym and roughly in line with the V4's and 6's. Having a V5 compare with a V1 is ridiculous. Setters should also be able to set hard without setting large moves. There are all kinds of things you can do with body positioning, tension and the like to create hard problems with average length moves in them.
It's unfortunate that most gyms still treat setting as a throwaway job. It is a skill that requires practice to be good at. But at minimum wage, most kids do it for a few years and then move on to something else.
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Post by daustin on Jun 19, 2015 13:55:24 GMT -7
Good perspective on the customers' attitudes on grades, Otis! One thing that my old gym did that I really actually liked was color-code their grades and grade in ranges: for example, white or yellow = V0-V2/<5.10, green or red = V3-V4/5.11, blue or black = V5-V7/5.12, multi-color=V8+/5.13+
Not that the above color/grading system is the best correlation -- maybe you need more or less tiers depending on your customer base, but I like the general idea of not trying to have gym grading follow outdoor grading on a 1-to-1 level.
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