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Post by sillygoose on Feb 27, 2015 1:51:03 GMT -7
Hello,
I am on the first cycle of the program and just finished a 4 week power phase. After 5 weeks of hangboarding during the strength phase I noticed a significant improvement in finger strength and was quite impressed by my strength gains. During my first limit bouldering session I was easily doing problems I had struggled with before and small holds just felt bigger.
Fast forward 4 weeks and I just completed my last limit bouldering session of the power phase. I feel that most of the gains made during the strength phase are waning and I am now struggling on moves that felt easy right after the strength phase. I am falling of problems I flashed in the beginning of the cycle and my limit boulder projects feel harder now than they did when I started out. Has anyone else experienced this? Is this normal? As a side note I have experienced improvement in campusing during the power phase but am not really seeing these gains in my bouldering.
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Post by Chris W on Feb 27, 2015 6:05:48 GMT -7
I've experienced similar issues from overtraining in the past, though in a different sport in my younger days. Are you getting enough rest between workouts? Eating and sleeping well? You should experience some degree of decline in overall strength as you cycle progresses, but it sounds a bit early for a dramatic dip.
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Post by sillygoose on Feb 27, 2015 6:26:14 GMT -7
I take 2 whole days of rest after campusing and 1 day of rest after limit bouldering, so usually not more than 3 sessions a week. Sleeping has been a bit on and off for the past 6 months (an infant has infiltrated the household), but I don't think I'm sleeping less now than I did 4 or 5 weeks ago.
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Post by jessebruni on Feb 27, 2015 9:58:43 GMT -7
Are you still doing your supplemental exercises? Have you gained any weight? Is your overall fitness level better, worse, or the same? If the answers are yes, no, and the same, then I would assume that you probably have lost a little bit of strength since hangboarding as you're past your strength peak. You should be at a power peak now or close to it, once you finish your PE phase, or even before, you'll start to hit your performance peak. Since route performance is a function of all three you should still be at a higher performance peak than last time, even if your strength isn't as high as it was at it's peak. During your next strength phase you should peak higher since strength gains come slowly but are easy to regain when lost, but it makes sense that after 4 weeks of not hangboarding you're going to lose a little bit of strength.
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Post by sillygoose on Feb 27, 2015 11:07:05 GMT -7
That makes sense Jesse, I guess I just didnĀ“t expect the drop off to be so drastic. Thanks for your comments.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 27, 2015 16:31:23 GMT -7
I would say that is unusual bu not impossible. It's a bit odd based on the rough training frequency you provided. If you've been training indoors 3 times per week for all of those four weeks, and you've been training "properly", you shouldn't lose any power. At the very least I would expect it to improve over the first 2 or 3 weeks, and then stay the same (but not drop off that soon).
Normally when my strength/power drops off it's because I basically stopped power training in order to maximize my outdoor climbing (or for some other reason, like illness). A good example was last year's winter season, in which I trained indoors for the first two weeks of my Power Phase, and then I climbed outside each climbing day for the next four weeks. At the end of the first two weeks I was wicked strong, but 4 weeks later I was struggling to complete my warmups (note, during most of those 4 weeks I was warming up in my gym, then climbing outside, so it was very easy to quantify my fading power). By contrast, this winter season I've made a point to climb HARD inside at least one day a week (basically using Non Linear Periodization). I'm 8 weeks removed from the end of my Strength Phase and my power is still at its peak (according to my limit bouldering and campus results from today's workout).
So anyway, were you climbing inside 3 days a week, during all 4 weeks? If not, would you mind posting your actual climbing schedule during that time? If you were climbing inside the whole time, my guess would be that you were doing something "wrong" during your training sessions. Perhaps the intensity of your power training is too low, or the volume is too high. Perhaps you were incorporating some PE (intentionally or accidentally)--that is a sure way to dull your power.
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Post by amalec on Feb 27, 2015 19:28:24 GMT -7
I have the same dynamic, and have been wondering how to manage it. I do pretty exclusively bouldering, and have been following the bouldering program. I find I hit my bouldering peak towards the middle of the strength phase, and about 2-3 weeks into the power phase, and then have rapid declines.
My power phase generally consists of two days of hard/limit bouldering and a day of outdoor bounding at the local rock (Indian Rock or Mortar Rock in Berkeley). Gym time would typically involve warmup with easier problems, then hitting problems at my onsight and project level, and ending with a few really hard problems (either hard problems with a powerful move, or made up problems with the same dynamic). Typically 1-2 minute rests in between attempts for about 30-45 minutes of total hard bouldering.
Of course, I'm on the older side to be developing power (44). I've been wondering about just going for shorter strength and power phases, and rapid cycling (e.g., 3 week strength, 4-5 week power). Dunno.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 27, 2015 21:50:54 GMT -7
Interesting. Are you continuing to do supplemental exercises during the Power Phase? Also, are you doing any campusing? Campusing and SEs seem to really help me sustain my power peak (I suspect the campusing is more important). With limit bouldering there are many complex factors that make it hard to tell if you're getting enough stimulation. A given problem could be limiting for many reasons besides finger power (sharp holds, technical movement, power endurance, etc). Campusing is much more simple, and since it's easily quantified you can ensure the intensity is sufficient.
It's also odd that your power peak comes on so early. Typically it takes me several power workouts to reach my peak--I'm certainly not there during, or even immediately after, my Strength Phase. Is your resistance increasing through to the end of your Strength Phase, or are you plateauing earlier (like, around the time your power peak starts)?
I could see some real advantages to the rapid cycling approach. Certainly worth considering if you can't achieve a longer power peak.
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Post by sillygoose on Feb 28, 2015 9:09:22 GMT -7
I would say that is unusual bu not impossible. It's a bit odd based on the rough training frequency you provided. If you've been training indoors 3 times per week for all of those four weeks, and you've been training "properly", you shouldn't lose any power. At the very least I would expect it to improve over the first 2 or 3 weeks, and then stay the same (but not drop off that soon). Normally when my strength/power drops off it's because I basically stopped power training in order to maximize my outdoor climbing (or for some other reason, like illness). A good example was last year's winter season, in which I trained indoors for the first two weeks of my Power Phase, and then I climbed outside each climbing day for the next four weeks. At the end of the first two weeks I was wicked strong, but 4 weeks later I was struggling to complete my warmups (note, during most of those 4 weeks I was warming up in my gym, then climbing outside, so it was very easy to quantify my fading power). By contrast, this winter season I've made a point to climb HARD inside at least one day a week (basically using Non Linear Periodization). I'm 8 weeks removed from the end of my Strength Phase and my power is still at its peak (according to my limit bouldering and campus results from today's workout). So anyway, were you climbing inside 3 days a week, during all 4 weeks? If not, would you mind posting your actual climbing schedule during that time? If you were climbing inside the whole time, my guess would be that you were doing something "wrong" during your training sessions. Perhaps the intensity of your power training is too low, or the volume is too high. Perhaps you were incorporating some PE (intentionally or accidentally)--that is a sure way to dull your power. I only have a hardcopy of my training schedule at home so I have copied over the most essential information into the schedule template. I have almost exclusivly climbed inside with the exception of one day. I have not been doing any of the supplemental excerises. Attachments:SCHEDULE.xlsx (35.7 KB)
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Post by amalec on Feb 28, 2015 9:43:00 GMT -7
Interesting. Are you continuing to do supplemental exercises during the Power Phase? Also, are you doing any campusing? Campusing and SEs seem to really help me sustain my power peak (I suspect the campusing is more important). With limit bouldering there are many complex factors that make it hard to tell if you're getting enough stimulation. A given problem could be limiting for many reasons besides finger power (sharp holds, technical movement, power endurance, etc). Campusing is much more simple, and since it's easily quantified you can ensure the intensity is sufficient.. Have definitely been doing SE, but have not been campusing this cycle due to elbow tendonitis. My campus skills are generally weak, because I'm generally weak: I can do the very deep campus rungs, but not the medium rungs due to finger strength issues. It's also odd that your power peak comes on so early. Typically it takes me several power workouts to reach my peak--I'm certainly not there during, or even immediately after, my Strength Phase. Is your resistance increasing through to the end of your Strength Phase, or are you plateauing earlier (like, around the time your power peak starts)? I could see some real advantages to the rapid cycling approach. Certainly worth considering if you can't achieve a longer power peak. I run the strength phase until I see plateau, which is generally into the 4th week. Perhaps I'm generally finger strength limited, and hangboarding helps neuromuscular coordination -- I feel much of the gain I get in the strength phase is due to learning to pull harder. I'm going to Bishop next weekend, and will try a couple rounds of rapid cycle, to see if that helps. I gain strength and power so slowly, that all of this could be in the noise as well.
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focus
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by focus on Mar 1, 2015 9:35:59 GMT -7
Some interesting things surfacing. We, and the OP, shouldn't lose sight that this their first cycle and there could be several contributing reasons to the experience, that may be anywhere from the program itself to personal variation to just feeling off. If this were to happen every cycle for you, that would be more telling.
That said, I tend not to like a pure linear approach and going long stretches without engaging in a particular aspect of training. Steve Bechtel has talked at length about "the block" where training aspects are not eliminated but reduced while others are emphasized during various phases. This approach makes more sense to me and is how I've trained for years in other sports (more endurance related). Though, there is something to be said for getting stale (plateau) in a certain aspect and leaving it for a while to induce a sort of self intended detraining effect, only to return to it down the road.
Mark mentioned 'rapid cycling' which is an interesting idea - shorter cycles with less time between phases. I am sort of experimenting with a similar approach now.
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Post by Chris W on Mar 1, 2015 10:34:07 GMT -7
I don't think the Rock Prodigy program is purely linear. It starts out with base training and includes ARC training in the warm up of every other phase. After the power phase, the power endurance phase does include a warm up ARC and a warm up boulder ladder.
More to the point of this thread, I noticed during my winter phase that it took me two whole weeks to meet my gains from the prior power phase, and from the third week on I improved.
Goose, if this is your first cycle than I would in some ways agree with Focus. Try sticking with the program for several cycles and seeing what happens. If you are keeping a training log, it can be a great way to piece together what happens from season to season.
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Post by amalec on Mar 1, 2015 13:28:48 GMT -7
That said, I tend not to like a pure linear approach and going long stretches without engaging in a particular aspect of training. Steve Bechtel has talked at length about "the block" where training aspects are not eliminated but reduced while others are emphasized during various phases. RCTM is a block structured periodization program with linear periodization within blocks. Mark mentioned 'rapid cycling' which is an interesting idea - shorter cycles with less time between phases. I am sort of experimenting with a similar approach now. Just a guess, but I wonder if shorter blocks make more sense for beginner/intermediate training. In weight training, I'm used to periodization approaches where linear gains are possible early on, and more complex periodization is required for late intermediate and advanced trainers. Certainly, most of the periodization literature was developed for advanced trainers. OTOH, don't f*** with the program until you've tried it long enough to form an opinion is my basic stance from pervious experience in training.
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Post by sillygoose on Mar 2, 2015 1:33:44 GMT -7
I think I'm going to stick with the program as planned for a few cycles before considering any amendments. Right now it definitely feels like my peak in terms of performance was in the wake of the strength phase. The one day I climbed outside I climbed my hardest grade yet and I was feeling strong. My first PE session was a rather humbling experience, but I expect endurance to pick up quite rapidly. I'll be interested to see my fitness when I actually reach the planned performance peak at the end of the PE period.
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Post by latestart on Mar 2, 2015 9:01:14 GMT -7
I'm in very nearly the same boat as the OP. First time using the RP method, and just wrapping up my power phase. It seemed like I hit a climbing peak at the end of the strength phase when I climbed some hard boulders which I haven't been able to repeat. I progressed well throughout the power phase, increasing my max ladder and continuing to improve during the SE's.
I think that my climbing peaked after the strength phase because finger strength seems to be more of a limiting factor for me than power. I find that holding onto the holds is more limiting than moving between them.
Finger strength seems to be my primary limiting factor, so I'm considering making some changes for next season.
Strength: 4 Weeks (Previously 4 weeks) Power: 2-3 Weeks (Previously 4 weeks) Performance: 2-3 Weeks (Previously 4 weeks)
Based on what I've read on these forums, the shorter power phase means that my performance phase will also be a bit shorter, but it also means that I'll get back to working my weakness sooner. It seems like this approach would help me focus more on my primary weakness at the moment (finger strength), and that the cumulative gains from the strength training phase would help to even out my climbing abilities.
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