|
Post by tahmad on Jul 16, 2017 10:45:14 GMT -7
Hi All,
I have a question about how long people consider extending their repeaters phases for. I am primarily a boulderer and orient my training as such. I do the advanced repeaters protocol followed by Lopez max hangs, followed by campus boarding.
This cycle has been very good in that I've set PRs on about half my grips and matched my old ones on the rest, but the caveat is that I just finished my 15th repeaters workout, and I only set a PR on my open crimp (which is the grip I use as a baseline/most important grip) on workout #14. Possible reasons for this include a somewhat interrupted cycle due to work/travel, and concurrently slightly worse rest than I might normally get. I also did start off very light - i.e., probably didn't fail in a grip until maybe workout 7 or even 8. That could well have been a contributing factor to only making PRs after so many workouts, as per this thread from last year (comment from Mark):
"If you think you're plateauing, you might try some tweaks to break the plateau. One thing to try is to just be more aggressive at the beginning of the phase, in hopes that you can brute-force your way through the plateau. It could be that it takes your forearms longer to respond to training, and if the first half of your phase is pretty mellow, you may not be getting enough stimulation to force adaptation until the 3rd work (or something like that). In that case, maybe your body doesn't adapt for another 2 weeks, by which time you're on to LBing. A more conservative response to the same theory would be to start out the same way, but add more workouts at the end, thus increasing the length of the phase."
The other relevant bit of information here is that I am fairly well-trained, i.e., bouldering in the double digits, etc. I say this not because I'm trying to show off but because I am wondering if it might justify a need for an unusually long HYP phase, to really get those gains.
My question comes down to: to what extent is it reasonable to dramatically extend the typical HYP phase, as I have done? If I am making improvements between workouts, however small, does it make sense to just keep going with the repeaters until I really feel like I'm hitting a wall? I'm primarily interested in long term improvement, and I don't mind thrashing myself on the same workout for a long time if that's what it takes to hit new PRs and ultimately get stronger in the long term. But I also want to be efficient, and if it makes more sense to do slightly shorter hangboard phases and aim to PR slightly less frequently, I would want to do that instead.
Thanks for reading the long post, and I look forward to your thoughts!
Taimur
|
|
|
Post by tahmad on Jul 16, 2017 15:41:06 GMT -7
And just a bit more data:
After much indecision, I decided to do one last repeaters session today (#16), and much to my surprise set PRs on three grips... So it certainly seems to have been worth it to do this one extra one, but long term, still not sure.
|
|
|
Post by erick on Jul 16, 2017 17:58:12 GMT -7
I'm in an extended strength phase right now. Not as long as yours has been but I'm planning to keep going as long as I'm making gains in at least two grips. I'm trying to build back up from some time off though. If I was aiming towards a specific performance phase time period I would be happy with my strength and move on.
Eric
|
|
|
Post by tahmad on Jul 16, 2017 18:03:31 GMT -7
Word. I'm not aiming for a specific peak right now, just generally trying to get stronger. It's too hot to do any hard climbing where I am right now anyway. I am planning on starting my next phase even though I made gains today, because 16 workouts just seems like enough at this point.
|
|
|
Post by MarkAnderson on Jul 16, 2017 19:51:56 GMT -7
Simply put, nobody really knows (at least I don't). If you really want to know, the best way to find out would be to try it. That said, you've done 16 workouts already, which I would consider VERY long. I think the most I've done is 12, so you've gone another 33% beyond that. Still body builders routinely do 8-week Hyp phases, and you're still presumably a bit shy of that.
I'm curious where you are mentally. I can handle a lot HB workouts, assuming I start out pretty easy and ramp up. But I feel like I only have about 6-8 really hard workouts in me before I need a mental break. It's sounds like you cruised through the first half of your phase, so I'd expect you to start feeling pretty burnt out about now.
|
|
|
Post by tahmad on Jul 17, 2017 8:24:11 GMT -7
I definitely feel somewhat burnt out by HYP workouts right now. When I got to the gym yesterday I spent a good 15 minutes or so just trying to decide whether I really wanted to do one more session of repeaters... Obviously I'm glad I did because of the new PRs I hit, but I was very ready (and am now going to) switch phases.
It's really interesting to hear that the most you've done is 12. That's also the most I'd done in previous cycles. I'm assuming that you find 12 to be enough to consistently hit new PRs? Do you start off a little more aggressively than I did? I.e. how quickly (in terms of number of sessions) do you start failing or getting very close to failure on your grips?
Also interesting to hear that bodybuilders will do an 8 week HYP phase at times. It would be a good experiment to see what happens after, say, 20 sessions, i.e., if I would still be making incremental gains or just really hitting a wall. Certainly the 16 session block seemed to work out for me this time. Regardless, you are right about me being mentally ready to shift - so that's what I'm going to do.
Thanks for your thoughts!
|
|
|
Post by srossabi42 on Jul 18, 2017 8:31:07 GMT -7
hi Taimur,
can i ask what you plan on doing now that you are moving on from repeaters? and will you return to doing HB repeaters pretty quickly? thanks!
|
|
|
Post by tahmad on Jul 18, 2017 9:11:09 GMT -7
Hi - I'll be doing Lopez protocol max hangs, probably 8-10 sessions of those depending on the gains I am making. Then I'll do some campusing, probably 6-8 campus sessions. I'll also be doing limit bouldering during my max hangs and campusing phases. Then a week off, then back to repeaters. So I suppose about 2 months or so until I'm back to repeaters...
|
|
|
Post by srossabi42 on Jul 18, 2017 9:31:33 GMT -7
awesome thanks!
|
|
|
Post by tetrault on Jul 18, 2017 16:35:23 GMT -7
Tahmad- 16 workouts is amazing. Congrats for making it through and improving the whole time! I almost always try to do as many as possible and almost always hit a wall where I significantly regress by workout 8 or 9, no matter where I am compared to PRs.
How light did you start relative to your usual start or relative to your previous PRs?
Also, were you doing much other climbing between HB workouts? Was the schedule generally: HB workout one day, followed by 2 rest days, then repeat?
Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by tahmad on Jul 18, 2017 18:00:06 GMT -7
Thanks! I was actually very pleasantly surprised at the steady improvement. Normally my experience is more similar to yours.
I started very light. I took off 40 lbs (i.e. 8 sessions worth of 5 lb improvements) from my previous season best, which for most of my grips was also at least tied for my PR, but not all of them. I checked back on my training log, and it seems like sessions 1-6 (i.e. getting back up to within 10 lbs of my previous season bests) were fairly moderate, not trivial per se but I never really felt like I was going to fail. Maybe this wasn't enough stimulus, but I wanted to experiment with starting a bit lighter, and I think it was a good call in that I still felt stronger each sesh, even tho i wasn't quite going to failure. The next 2-3 sessions (sessions 7-9 or so overall) were much harder, getting very close to failing but not quite, or actually failing in some grips. In other words once I started hitting my old bests or being within 5 lbs of them, depending on the grip, is when i started failing, so, in the 8-12 session range. One or two grips stagnated and even regressed for a session or two, the rest held steady or made incremental progress. Then I broke through to new PRs on session 14, and improved those PRs as well as setting a few more on different grips in session 16, which I assure you was a big surprise to me.
One thing I will say I've noticed, based on previous cycles of repeaters... if you are pushing into the 9-10+ workouts range, I think taking extra rest might make sense. I.e. 3 days in between some training sessions. If you are working really close to your limit, sometimes you just need to be extra fresh, I guess. This is anecdotal, mind you! I don't necessarily have hard data to back it up.
As to your question on scheduling - in the past what I would do was hangboard + calisthenics/weights on day 1, then boulder on day 2, then rest day 3, and then hangboard again on day 4. This was not optimal. As a boulderer, its clear that repeaters make me "worse" at bouldering, i.e., if i do them for long enough and dont maintain my max R, I get noticeably less powerful on the boulders. So this cycle I decided to just not boulder. I experimented with a new schedule and quite liked it: Hangboard + very select calisthenics (pulls, front levers) on day 1, followed by light lead climbing (i.e. nothing that gave me more than a light pump, focusing on technique, breathing, etc) + weights on day 2, followed by a full rest day on day 3 (possibly some light cardio, often not), and then hangboard again day 4. I'd throw in a number of double rest days, so the whole light lead climbing + weights thing probably happened every other time, if that makes sense (i.e. HB --> Lead --> rest --> HB --> rest-->rest-->HB--->lead, etc).
So there you have it, sorry for the wall of text. I quite liked this schedule... i still got to climb and improve my lead technique, didnt get frustrated at myself for getting worse and worse at bouldering, and also never put myself in a hole with too much climbing, HB workouts were still very much prioritized. In the future if i want to get more serious about lead, i might consider doing HB-->rest-->harder lead session--> rest--> HB, etc.
|
|
|
Post by tetrault on Jul 20, 2017 6:15:57 GMT -7
Thanks for the detailed response! It would make sense that the extra rest or less powerful climbing in between HB days would allow you to "tap into" more existing strength, and\or allow for increased specific gains. Also great to hear more anecdotal evidence that more rest was helpful as it is often a mental struggle to rest enough.
I wonder if you could have started at about 30lbs below your previous numbers and arrived at the same outcome by HB14 instead of HB16? Or would you have hit "the wall" early and stagnate/regress. No way to know I guess.
Assuming that starting 20lbs below your previous would likely result in burning out too soon.
I never boulder during HB phase, but I may be putting too much effort into the optional ARC "recovery" days that I typically include.
Hope you have a great power period and some meaningful sends when the weather cools down.
|
|
|
Post by tahmad on Jul 20, 2017 9:08:20 GMT -7
I wonder the same thing. Wouldn't be too surprised if that had been the case. Or, Maybe start 40 lbs lighter, but up by 10 once or twice instead of 5 each time.
Thanks! I'm definitely psyched on seeing how this translates to my power phase.
|
|
|
Post by MarkAnderson on Jul 24, 2017 14:43:23 GMT -7
Great discussion here. I think there's value in doing the early workouts, even if they seem easy. Some adaptations take longer than others, so I think there are advantages to long phases. I suspect that we are actually cutting our HB phases a bit short, and we could see gains if we kept going. The reason I don't is that everything has a point of diminishing returns. Is it worthwhile to invest an extra month for another 5 or 10 lb on the HB? I think not (YMMV).
To answer your earlier question, I'm usually trying pretty hard on at least a few grips within 3 workouts or so. It used to take longer (I'd cruise through the first 5 or 6). I'm not sure if that is because I'm being more aggressive in my starting weights, or because I'm older, and I so I de-train faster between HB phases. I think it's more likely the latter.
|
|
|
Post by tahmad on Aug 7, 2017 11:42:46 GMT -7
Thanks for the response Mark! I suspect you are right. I haven't been training nearly as long as you, but I do think at this point I need to push harder in terms of length of phase to make the gains.
I guess the question that your point about an extra month for 5-10 lbs being worth it raises is, are you still making long term gains if you don't hit or at the very least tie your PR? I.e., even without a PR, are you still laying the groundwork for gains in the next cycle? Maybe a naïve question, but I am genuinely curious about the physiology of it, because obviously we can't (or at least it is very difficult to) hit PRs in every single phase, every cycle. But ultimately, that's how we objectively judge that we've gotten stronger... Plus, as a boulderer it may make more sense for me to eke out that extra bit of strength, since I don't need to worry about ARCing etc. But that's a different issue!
|
|