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Post by erick on Aug 26, 2016 11:30:03 GMT -7
I have just moved to leavenworth WA which is a bouldering dreamland. With easy access to lots of problems, training power will not be a to hard for me now. But what I do not really have access to is good terrain to work endurance for sport routes. There are no gyms near by so I'm wanting to build an training wall for ARC and LBC workouts as well as a campus board. But I'm wondering what is everyones experience with outdoor walls?
Leavenworth is on the dry side of the state where the rain and humidity are pretty low. We do get snow in the winter and it does get pretty cold, plus the space I would have to build it would always be in the shade. I would like to use it year round so I'd love to hear from anyone who has build an outdoor space.
How hard is it to use in the winter, at what temperature is it just too cold? How difficult is it to keep it from rotting? Anyone know any good freestanding designs?
Eric
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Post by erick on Aug 28, 2016 16:18:09 GMT -7
So I'm still interested to hear everyone's thoughts on the previous post but here is what I'm working with.
I have about 16' of length I can play with and since this will be outside I can build up a LOT! Along with having climbing space I'm looking to add in a campus setup as well. What does the collective wisdom think the best way to use what I have is.
For the campus section my initial idea is to make and overhang on the far right side at 15 degrees since that is my preferred campus angle. I would love to have space to line SM MD and LG campus rungs right next to each other but that would eat up 4' of space. So I'm thinking of moon half spacing for the small and stagnating the medium(on moon spacing) large(on moon half steps in between the mediums).
For the rest of the board I was either thinking of carrying on the 15 degree angle or stepping it up to 20 degrees. Since my main hope was to have a great space for ARC, LBC workouts plus being able to warm up for hangboard/campus and local Boulder projects, this seems like it would be best and could also set limit problems on it.
One big worry I have is that I won't have any steep training space. I have also always wanted a MOON board and this would be the perfect opportunity to build one, but since they need 8' it would suck up half my wall space and the campus board would eat most of the rest. Do you think I could skip having wall space for limit bouldering since I have so many limit boulders near by?
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Post by daustin on Aug 28, 2016 22:49:06 GMT -7
For the past couple years running, I've spent Christmas or New Years in central PA with my in-laws. There's no climbing gym nearby, but I actually found someone on MountainProject with an outdoor woody that was kind enough to let me use it. It was under his deck, so protected from pure vertical precipitation but otherwise pretty much exposed to the elements. It wasn't painted at all, but I'm not sure if he did anything special to weather-proof it. Think he'd had it for 4-5 years with no structural damage.
Last year I climbed while it was snowing, with temps in the mid 30s. I was wearing a puffy, beanie and shorts, and was cold but not miserable. Felt like I needed longer to warm up, but otherwise didn't notice any ill effects. Don't know what temps in Leav are like in Jan/Feb, but if you're psyched enough I think you should be able to use an outdoor woody year round, maybe with a handful of days that are too cold.
Search these forums for the woody that Ted Welser built. I believe it was a moon board with an additional offset T nut system so he had some additional flexibility in terms of hold selection and setting. Sounds like you could use 8' for that, 4' for the campus board and then maybe just have another 4' section at the same angle as the campus board in between? Could give you a bit of less steep space for resting/easier moves if you're ARCing but still let you use the bulk of the wall at the steeper moon angle.
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Post by Chris W on Aug 31, 2016 4:34:22 GMT -7
I train in my barn at home. There is no wind or rain in there, but the temperature and humidity are the same as the outside. I've trained there in temps lower than 10 degrees and higher than 90, with humidity anywhere in between. When it's super cold, I wear lots of layers, including a down puffy with a hat and hood, and when it's super hot I strip down to nothing but a pair of board shorts. Training in the heat and humidity is uncomfortable, but doable, especially if you have a climate controlled space to hangboard. Regarding the cold:
-Hangboarding isn't an issue. The colder the better. I use a little propane heater to thaw my hands between sets.
-Power training (campusing and limit bouldering) is fine in the cold. If you can stand 5-10 minutes of soul crushing cold fingers for an ARC warmup, you can come down off the wall, warm your fingers and toes in front of a little heater for 5-10 minutes, then you'll be surprised how easy it is to continue. This strategy seems to create some type of hyperemic response that keeps blood flowing to digits.
-Power endurance also isn't much of an issue. After a warm up described above, the cold isn't too bothersome.
-ARC training is the real tough one. I've done ARC sessions at 05:00 in 5-10 degree weather, but it's pretty brutal. Once it's that cold, you'll still have issues with numb and potentially painful fingers and toes, even after the warm up. Aside from layering, I'll put a hand warmer in my chalk bag and another in each pants pocket. Instead of shaking out, I'll stick a hand in my chalk bag or pocket to warm my fingers. It seems to be a bit easier to ARC on a steeper angle with larger holds when it gets this cold. Sometimes I'll also set my heater at the base of the wall by a jug, so I can stay on the wall and shake out my hands in front of the heater.
-Wind may be your biggest issue. If it's windy, you may not be able to ARC in temps nearly that cold. There are cracks in the eves of my barn, and if it's super windy outside the wind (and sometimes fine powder snow) will blow under the eves and freeze my fingers and settle snow on the holds. The snow can be brushed off with a brush.
-I've thought about building an outdoor wall, but it's too wet here in Central PA to make it worth while. My design ideas involved planting pressure treated posts in the ground with cement, framing the wall with pressure treated lumber, then building the climbing surface with composite deck boards. These are super expensive though. I would use stainless steel t-nuts and leave just a smidge of space in between toe boards to prevent mold buildup between the spaces. I also thought of using pressure treated lumber as the surface of the wall instead of composite deck boards. This would be a less expensive option.
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Post by Lundy on Aug 31, 2016 5:48:19 GMT -7
No comment about building for outdoor conditions, but I do have the solution for the cold toes question. In really cold outdoor temps, I usually climb with three hand warmers -- one in my chalk bag, and one laced above the tongue but below the laces on each of my climbing shoes. Keeps the toes nice and toasty when they'd otherwise be frozen solid. Obviously you're not going to super crush the laces on, so micro-edging might be out of the question, but it's great for really late season and winter climbing at the Red, for example...
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Post by erick on Aug 31, 2016 7:50:38 GMT -7
Thanks for your thoughts. Here is my current building plan...  And here is a bird eye view of the 'roof'  I can't seem to get the first photo to rotate in the proper direction but you can get the idea. My dimensions will be 12' Vertical climbing space by 16' horizontal space. I have decided to go with a 25 degree angle unless you all think 20 would be a better use of the space. A four foot wide section on the far right side will have a 15 degree angle build in that starts 5' up, this will be the campus board. As I'm building I am see if I can find a cleaver way to transition it into the rest of the board on the left side but I have not figured that out yet. So thats what the climbing space will look like. Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions? Im not in any way an engineer and have little building experience so this part is where I really want some critics. For the climbing wall studs I plan to use 2x8s or 2x10s on 16" centers unless the you all think 2x6s would be fine. The campus section will be build with 2x4s. They will be framed together with a 16' wide board on the bottom and top. There will be a roof that extends about 5' away from the climbing wall and be build from 3 2x10s supported by either 4x4s or 4x6s upright posts. There will be a 16' 2x10 connecting all three posts at the top. If my landlord allows I will use some kind of cement screw or bolt to attach the climbing wall frame and the upright posts to the cement patio. Otherwise I will tie it all together with 2x6s at the base. I will probably add addition 2x2s on the roof to attach plastic corrugated roofing to. There will also be plastic corrugated roofing on the backside of the climbing wall as well. All studs will be pressure treated and the plywood will be heavily painted. Any questions? Does this seem structurally sound? I am very interested to hear what your thoughts are regarding what size stud I need to use and if need more support posts and roof studs. Plus any other advice you have before I start buying wood, Tnuts, or anything else. Thanks so much so for all your advice so far. Im really excited to get started on this thing. Eric |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 31, 2016 8:18:29 GMT -7
I think 2x6's would be sufficient for pretty much everything (assuming spacing at 16" oc), with the possible exception of the "16' 2x10 connecting all three posts". 2x4s for the campus board are a little on the light side, but you can make up for that by doubling the plywood on the campus board, which is a good idea anyway to ensure you don't rip a rung off.
The main thing I see missing here is some form of diagonal bracing. You may find that the plywood on the climbing surfaces provides enough stability against lateral and torsional loads. But they may not. My guess is the climbing surfaces will be rock solid, but the supporting posts will be wobbly (especially if they aren't fastened to the patio). You can solve that with some diagonal 1x4 or 2x4 bracing, or with "gussets" (90 degree triangles made of plywood). If I were you, I would build it first without any of this, see how stable it is, then add bracing as needed.
Also, I think 25 degrees is a good angle.
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Post by erick on Sept 1, 2016 8:00:31 GMT -7
2x4s for the campus board are a little on the light side, but you can make up for that by doubling the plywood on the campus board, which is a good idea anyway to ensure you don't rip a rung off. If I went with 2x6 for the campus board would having an 1.5" of plywood (two 3/4 sheets) still be a good idea? Also 4x4 or 4x6 posts? What's the consensus on the best tnut layout? |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 1, 2016 14:03:11 GMT -7
Metolius recommends double the plywood. I've pretty much always done it that way. It's probably a good idea, but there are surely boards out there with only a single sheet.
I would think 4x4 posts would be sufficient.
RE: T-nuts, mine are pretty much random, but it seems like most people like some sort of grid, usually with 6" spacing or less. Density is the key. The more T-nuts the more options you have. Since you will have a relatively small wall, more T-nuts will be helpful.
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Post by jcm on Sept 1, 2016 16:34:30 GMT -7
One big worry I have is that I won't have any steep training space. I have also always wanted a MOON board and this would be the perfect opportunity to build one, but since they need 8' it would suck up half my wall space and the campus board would eat most of the rest. Do you think I could skip having wall space for limit bouldering since I have so many limit boulders near by? A bit of the detour from the discussion of building methods to address this: I don't think that Leavenworth bouldering is an adequate substitute for having limit boulders on plastic, if your goal is to build power. Leavenworth bouldering is too technical and too skin intensive to allow for the same volume and intensity of powerful movement you can get on, say, a Moonboard. In Leavenworth my skin almost always wears out before I've had a chance to really max out my power. And the Moonboard is much more time efficient too. Outdoor bouldering is a wonderful thing, and will make you a better climber, but for raw power it has limitations, especially on medium grain granite. Combining outdoor bouldering with the campus board could be effective, but I still think it is a good idea to still have some plastic limit bouldering in the rotation.
If you are building a 25 degree wall, you should probably be fine. There really isn't much sport climbing in the PNW that is steeper than that anyway, so doing your limit bouldering on that angle should be good realistic training for most sport climbing objectives in the region.
Also, there are some locals in Leavenworth with a garage Moonboard. They aren't people I know well, so I can't point you to them, but you should figure it out soon enough. If you build a sweet home wall and work out some sort of home wall sharing arrangement, that'd probably be awesome for everyone.
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Post by Chris W on Sept 1, 2016 17:40:53 GMT -7
I'm not quite sure I follow all the designs. One concern I would have is the wall sagging in the middle. If it's 16 feet wide, it would be helpful to have some type of support at the 0, 4, 8, 12 and 16 foot mark. If you can't do that, how about the 0, 8 and 16 foot mark? Back in my bachelor days before I had my barn, I built a "freestanding" 8 foot x 8 foot wall in the basement of my apartment (asking forgiveness rather than permission). I had supports at the 0 and 8 foot marks, but the wall was unstable and groaned in the middle when weighted (though it was framed with 2x4's, while I should have used something heavier). I fixed this by tying the top of the wall into the ceiling (floor) joists to give it support. This also helped with lateral and torsional stability.
-Regarding plywood, I've not had good luck using it outside where it is exposed to the elements. It seems to rot and fall apart and delaminate easily. If you're going to use it instead of pressure treated 1x6 planks, I would really seal or paint the heck out of it, including the holes you drill for your t-nuts.
-I've always drilled holes for my t-nuts 8 inches apart (laterally), dropped a row down 4 inches, and drilled another set of holes 8 inches apart, but staggering them. For example, at the top of an 8x4 sheet of plywood, I'd drill holes at 4", 12", 20", 28", 36" and 44". The next row would start 4" down and holes would be at 8" 16" 24" 32" and 40". If you're installing all the t-nuts yourself, this can take a lot of time and patience. You can always add more t-nut holes if you have access to the back of your wall.
-I use a single sheet of 3/4 inch plywood for everything, including my campus board, and haven't had any issues, but if you can go with double sheets (1.5 inches) you certainly won't have trouble with any screws pulling through. Be sure to use outdoor deck screws.
-I am a firm believer in using joist hangers when available and practical. I don't know if they make them for use when exposed to the elements.
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Post by tedwelser on Sept 1, 2016 21:24:33 GMT -7
Do you have a photo of the space available? Here are some details on the most recent home wall I built/helped build. boulderingathenscounty.blogspot.com/2016/02/home-wall-construction-updates.htmland boulderingathenscounty.blogspot.com/2016/07/building-moonkilter-hybrid-board.htmlOne of my earlier home walls was outdoors (under a screened in porch). That wall held up well because it stayed dry from the roof above. It also made it a fine place to hang out, even in the snow and rain. If I were to build an outdoor wall again it would have a pole barn style roof and partial wall around it to keep everything isolated from bad weather. It is better for your wall, the hardware and the holds. The pole barn style frame would also provide the basis for the support framing, but I always err of the side of "stronger than typical" framing. Oh, and use the outdoor deck screws with the star shaped drive, not philips. You can drive them so much more easily without any slippage. |
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Post by erick on Sept 1, 2016 22:44:42 GMT -7
If it's 16 feet wide, it would be helpful to have some type of support at the 0, 4, 8, 12 and 16 foot mark. If you can't do that, how about the 0, 8 and 16 foot mark? A 2x10 roof support at 0, 8, and 16 is the current plan. Each of those will be tied into a 4x4 support post, but I could easily add two more at 4 and 12 which would connect to the 2x10 the is connecting the three 4x4 posts and will be running parallel to the climbing wall. I am planning to generously paint the plywood but all the wall will be covered by plastic corrugated roofing. Hopefully that will be enough. JCM, i am definitely planning to limit boulder on this wall. I just think that the 25 degree angle will be a better use of my space than a moon board, at least for now. Like you mentioned, realistically I won't be climbing on anything steeper than that very often. Also, since I have been bouldering out here a lot I have noticed my skin endurance has grown. But your skin can only take so much. |
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Post by Chris W on Sept 2, 2016 2:26:17 GMT -7
OK, I think I understand your design a bit better now. Try the supports the way you originally intended; you can always add more if you feel like it is needed.
I also agree with Ted in terms of the star head bits for the screws. Sounds like a fun project!
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Post by erick on Sept 6, 2016 15:41:45 GMT -7
Last question before I buy lumber and start building. My campus board plan is to have it be 4' wide, 15 degrees and have moon half spacing.
Should my campus board be 9 feet long? That would put my first rung at 5' high which seems perfect but will make the board higher than I will ever need.
Or
Should I cut the length down to 8 feet which would put my first ring a little closer to 6 ft high, as well as nicely fitting everything on one 4x8 sheet of plywood. That would give me a bit more climbing surface under the campus board which seems more useful that extra campus space.
For reference I am 5' 10" and my wife is 5' 7" and we are likely going to be the only users of the board.
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