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Post by Charlie S on Aug 9, 2016 19:25:12 GMT -7
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Post by miller on Aug 10, 2016 9:53:45 GMT -7
Just watch a video of Adam Ondra climb. He flies up the wall.
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Post by Charlie S on Aug 10, 2016 17:11:10 GMT -7
Just watch a video of Adam Ondra climb. He flies up the wall. True. I'm not sure anyone climbs as fast as he does, though.
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Post by aikibujin on Apr 12, 2017 12:27:46 GMT -7
I read Matt Lloyd’s article last year and prompted dismissed it. “I’ll climb as fast as I want!” I thought. But then last November Mark told me I climb kind of slow, and earlier this year I got a chance to watch myself climb in a video I shot to record beta on a route. Man, I do climb like a sloth! What Matt wrote in the article suddenly makes some sense.
I think part of the issue for me is mental. On an onsight attempt, I often slow down to a crawl because I’m figuring out sequences, and sometimes when I’m faced with too many options I get indecisive. That’s an issue I need to work on separately. But even on a redpoint project when I have all the sequence figured out, I’m still not going nearly as fast as I imagined myself climbing. So I want to improve my speed when climbing. Looking at my video, I think I can improve the most if I moved my feet faster. I don’t move my feet with any sense of urgency, and as I near a foothold I actually slowdown to almost a hover before placing my foot, an unfortunate result of following the “silent feet” craze for years. The obvious answer is to just move my feet faster, which works in the gym where all the footholds are protruding blob of plastic. But outside where the footholds are often smaller and sometimes hard to see, I feel like I loose accuracy when I try to increase my speed. Probably due to poor foot-eye coordination if there is such a thing, but if I try to stab my toe to a hold very quick, I often end up missing it by a lot.
Anyone has any tips on increasing speed without losing accuracy?
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Post by tetrault on Apr 12, 2017 14:00:17 GMT -7
I have found that the blinking drill outlined in the RPTM is quite a taxing endeavor if you are honest about following it on the correct terrain (something with small foot holds). Hence why I never really did it until recently. I don't have any proof, but it seems to help connect the toes to the brain a bit more directly, thus aiding in accurate placements.
I feel, so far, that practicing "speed" at the gym has not worked well for me as it ends up more of an exercise in ingraining poor/sloppy form.
That said, I don't like how this is stated in the article: "How many little adjustments do you make on each hold looking to find that “sweet” spot? These types of adjustments are unnecessary and inefficient actions that slowly deplete your energy. Watch the pros again and you will find that they just flat out don’t do this. So just focus on grabbing, pulling, and repeating. Stop messing around searching for the perfect feeling hold."
I absolutely agree that each foot/hand placement should be a 1-shot deal with no adjustments (as mentioned in the technique definition thread), but I feel this article makes it sound as if pros are not worried about perfect placements. In reality, I think they probably spent countless hours refining the process of looking at the next hold and judging the perfect hand and foot orientation, then sticking it first go (in addition to some innate ability/talent for doing so).
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Post by climber511 on Apr 12, 2017 14:30:38 GMT -7
I know going in that there is no real answer for this question but I'll ask anyway. Generally speaking and when climbing a route just within your comfort zone - how long do you take per 100" pitch as an example. Not one you have wired or rehearsed but an onsight attempt within that limitation. I've been a trad climber most of my climbing life and know I'm somewhat slow because of it so even a few examples as a rough guideline would be helpful - just to see where I stand and where I want to get to. There aren't many videos (that I have found) like this out there showing whole pitches except for super hard stuff that I can get times for. Thank You
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 12, 2017 14:57:57 GMT -7
98% of the slowness I observe in others is not due to the time spent making actual moves. The slowness is caused by hesitating between moves: -standing in one position for days staring at the rock, and then... -feeling the same three equivalent holds 58 times until finally deciding which is the goldilocks hold, and then... -climbing up a move, then down a move, then feeling the same three holds 58 times...and then... -climbing up a move, then down a move, then feeling the same three holds 58 times...and then... I think you all get the idea. The solution to all of this is to adopt a mindset of "paddling". You can't maintain your position in water by staying still. You have to keep moving. The same is true of hard routes. It's easier to paddle through the difficulties than it is to tread water. The irony is that usually the treading water is actually reducing the chances you will succeed when you finally start moving (by causing fatigue, killing momentum and reducing confidence). Sure, on the hardest moves it makes sense to double-check your sequence, but the really slow climbers are doing this on every move and its just ridiculous. If you do every easy move three times (from all the up and down climbing) you're going to be significantly more tired by the time you get to the business. Certainly your belayer will have lost interest by then
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 12, 2017 14:58:59 GMT -7
Oh ya, chalking for no reason is another big hesitation tactic.
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Post by aikibujin on Apr 12, 2017 15:09:14 GMT -7
but it seems to help connect the toes to the brain a bit more directly, thus aiding in accurate placements. Interesting. I'll have to try that drill again when I get a chance. I did it for a while when I was ARCing last year, but the holds are pretty big on the stuff I was ARCing on, and I was using the drill more as a practice to commit all nearby holds to short term memory so I don't forget where they are during a crux move. Along the same line of thought, I’m wondering if I should practice stabbing the footholds with my feet: kick my toe onto the hold as fast as I can without breaking anything, kind of like the opposite of “silent feet”. Probably better to do this on small holds, I don’t see any benefit in kicking jugs.
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Post by aikibujin on Apr 12, 2017 17:56:45 GMT -7
98% of the slowness I observe in others is not due to the time spent making actual moves. The slowness is caused by hesitating between moves. If you do every easy move three times (from all the up and down climbing) you're going to be significantly more tired by the time you get to the business. Oh ya, chalking for no reason is another big hesitation tactic. All great points and very true, and I will conveniently sweep them all under the rug I labeled "mental" and try my hardest not to look under for as long as I can. But no, I know I need to work on those things. And now that I've been doing ionophoresis, I don't have any excuse for my excessive compulsive chalking habit either.
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Post by tetrault on Apr 12, 2017 18:08:15 GMT -7
Try the blinking drill with a sensitive pair of shoes as well and really try to feel and visualize the exact spot on the hold you are hitting with your feet. Maybe it will be a waste of time for you, I don't know. Kicking holds sounds dangerous! To go along with what Mark was saying, have you added up the time spent not making vertical progress in your videos? Is it truly the movement that is slow or the hesitation between? I consider myself slow as well (and a slow climber ). Recently, I analyzed video of myself and my faster, better climbing buddy sending the same route with about the same amount of working burns invested. Turned out I actually moved through the crux slightly faster than he did, however was guilty of exactly what Mark stated above in sections of the route other than the crux. Plus, it was on gear, so you can add to the list: placing a piece, fiddling with it, deciding it is no good, then placing a different piece that is worse, eventually going back to the original placement... Maybe try climbing without a chalk bag to see how many times you reach back as an excuse to stop and think.
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Post by aikibujin on Apr 12, 2017 20:08:19 GMT -7
To go along with what Mark was saying, have you added up the time spent not making vertical progress in your videos? Is it truly the movement that is slow or the hesitation between? For sure, I spend a lot of time (especially when onsighting) not making any upward progress, and I know it's something I need to work on. But it's also a fairly complex issue. I do chalk excessively, but part of it is because I do have really sweaty hands. Obviously, I've been doing iontophoresis to help with that, but why do my hands get soaked just thinking about a crux sequence? Maybe I need to work on dialing back my arousal level when I'm facing down the crux. I don't have a lot of problem getting myself all fired up and go for it, but I do have trouble relaxing after. Sometimes I stop just so I can take some deep breaths and calm myself. That point to a problem with breathing control, I'm probably not breathing in the most optimal way. Maybe my fear of falling is making me tense and hold my breath? And that fear of falling is probably linked to a fear of heights. My fear of heights is not very strong, but it's there. I know it's irrational, just like the fear of darkness and fear of water I had when I was a little kid. I don't have a fear of water anymore, but ironically I came closest to dying in water after I overcame that fear... I can go on and on. If we start to go down that rabbit hole, there's enough material to fill a book. I think I will call it, "The Stone Samurai's Path."
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Post by tetrault on Apr 13, 2017 2:52:45 GMT -7
I feel like I have somehow already read that book Maybe spending time on a drill that focuses on relaxing and breathing in the "cruxed out zone" would be more beneficial than spending time on a drill to simply speed up your foot placement on a hold. Maybe you could do some relatively high intentsity ARC sessions or relatively low intensity, long duration roped PE sessions to get into, and remain in, that "zone" for a while?
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Post by brendann on Apr 13, 2017 20:26:57 GMT -7
Your forearms obviously have a time limit and getting to the chains faster is better. The steeper the climb, the more important speed is. I remember Adam Ondra saying that success on the Dawn Wall came from slowing down his pace. The linked article misses the point that speed can only be applied once a technique is mastered. It is counterproductive to learn a new dance by doing it as quickly as possible. If you find yourself in the 5.12 range and still climbing slowly in steep terrain you should think about why. Are you concerned with how you look? Are you afraid to fall unexpectedly? Are you afraid to fall on something 'easy'?
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Post by tedwelser on Apr 13, 2017 22:55:08 GMT -7
Your forearms obviously have a time limit and getting to the chains faster is better. The steeper the climb, the more important speed is. In my experience I guess that I disagree with these two claims, or at least I contest their automatic generality, and would note that it (pacing) depends on the strength profile of the climber. First, on steep terrain I find that hurrying only helps me when the difficulty of a section is consistent and high, and pushes me into a power endurance effort. So, I would say on steep terrain that has consistent difficulty and is lacking holds that allow me to shift the effort to different parts of the forearm then speed is most helpful, up to the limit of my PE max move limit. The more general rule that helps me is to speed up when it is harder and slow down when it is easier. The more accurately I can adjust my effort level to barely meet the necessary intensity and the more quickly I can lower my arousal level after a hard section the better I do. On lots of steep routes I find it better not to rush, and instead I work hard to avoid an intense grip, keeping my effort level low. If I can keep cycling between holds with somewhat relaxed grips I can just avoid getting tired in the first place and can generally just keep climbing. More often, the character of the holds fluctuates a bit, and I end up speeding through the harder bits and really slowing down during the more restful holds. If I reflect on routes that I did a while ago, I see lots of cases where I stayed on the wall for longer and that was what allowed me to reach the chains. For instance, on Mercy the Huff I would spend easily an extra couple minutes at the better of the matching rests and would slowly dial back the intensity in my forearms before I could use the more difficult holds of the crux sections. On Table of Colors I would spend 8-10 min de-pumping on the matching rest around bolts #4-5 before casting off into the crux. If that rest had not been there or if I would have kept climbing at the level of exertion that I had when arriving at the same point I would never have been strong enough to pull the crux. In contrast, on Phantasia-- which boils down to a 20 move section, I found it key to just rest up before the roof after downclimbing from clipping the second roof draw and then just blitz through to the end. It was a PE crux and the faster I could go without making mistakes the better I would do. I think back then my rest habit was fueled by a bigger asymmetry between my open hand strength and my crimp strength, and the fact that I had no crimp PE. If I lost 20% of my crimp potential I was hopeless on cruxes; these days it is not so severe and I can get away with resting a bit less. Just last weekend I climbed a warm up (Cottonhead 10d) two times back to back. I climbed slowly the first time, and climbed quickly but efficiently the second time. I was not even tired the first time, but I was rather tired and a bit pumped the second even though I probably took 4 times as long the first time. The second time I skipped my 4 major matching rests and just chalked briefly at the 5th, right before the anchors. Anyways, those are just my observations.
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