henri
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Posts: 1
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Post by henri on Dec 12, 2015 4:26:32 GMT -7
Hi,
I've gone through the training program recommended in the book for four times now over the course of the last year and the results are evident. However, in order to test new approaches and refresh the mind, I'm now considering to run NPL program for the next few months to see how the progress and outcomes differ from the drill I've gone through so far.
By NPL I mean that all the different training protocols - strength, base fitness, power, PE - will all be drilled simultaneously in one week and such schedule repeated on the following weeks.
Sure it's subjective, but what differences have you guys noticed between the NPL and the book program? Do you feel like one or other protocol has higher slope of progression in long term?
Best regards, Henri
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Post by Jon on Jan 6, 2016 12:10:31 GMT -7
I typically use a non-linear periodization schedule for a few reasons, but mostly because it fits into my schedule better, but have followed the RCTM in the past. I appreciate the work that the Anderson brothers have done and think their program is very well structured and the discussions on this board are fantastic. With that said, most non-elite climbers will see significant gains from any well thought out structured program if they stick with it. Unfortunately, there isn't enough research directly related to climbing training that anyone can definitely say X program is the best. My program is a non-linear block periodization program that borrows from the RCTM, Steve Bechtel's ClimbStrong offerings, Kris Hampton and Steve Maisch's plans/advice. I would highly recommend checking out their websites in addition to RCTM. I spend between 50 and 75% of my time focused on one particular aspect (strength, power, endurance, etc.) and then the other 25-50% of my time doing minimal work on the other areas to keep them primed.
As for noticed differences, on the nonlinear plan, I find that I can actually climb more and at an overall higher level more frequently than I could on RCTM. I had difficulties staying strong through the endurance phases and then regaining enough endurance after the strength and power phases to be ready to send.
Overall, I think the RCTM will produce higher peaks and lower valleys than nonlinear periodization. Over the long haul, I think they would both bring someone to a very similar place in terms of their overall climbing abilities, assuming one spent the close to the same total number of hours training on each plan. My guess and this is just a guess, the best approach would probably be to do some alternating between the plans. Well thought out structured changes to training plans usually produce the best results. After several cycles, it is easier to change the intensity by mixing things up, rather than continually trying to increase load on the same exercise.
Also, Mark talked about how he altered his plan to a bit more non-linear to send one of his projects last year. It's on the delivered from purgatory post I believe.
Good luck with your plan.
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Post by erick on Jan 6, 2016 14:25:08 GMT -7
This is something have have wondered myself. Like Jon said I think you will likely see improvements from any plan you actually follow, and I would imagine the plan that fits your schedule and you can most easily follow is probably the best. I like the linear approach because it does seem to do a good job of keeping me from getting overuse injuries. But since climbing is such a skill dependent sport I always loss a little motor memory while in the strength phase since I do almost NO climbing during that time. I warm up for a HB workout in my garage. I would go to the gym to warm up but I have a hard time justifying a 30 minute drive each way just to warm up. Who knows maybe I will try and do the supplemental arc workouts this season to see if that helps.
I have wondered about hang board training during all phases but following different protocols depending on what phase your in. I am sure you could tweak the hang/rest to better suit PE or even base fitness.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 6, 2016 18:23:08 GMT -7
I disagree with the premise that the Rock Prodigy method is strictly Linear Periodization. If you read the RCTM carefully you will see it's really a hybrid between LP and NLP. I agree that it is most often characterized as LP though.
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Post by Jon on Jan 7, 2016 10:32:50 GMT -7
I agree that the Rock Prodigy method isn't strictly linear periodization, but if you were to look at a sliding scale, starting with strict LP moving to complete NLP, The Rock Prodigy method would be on the LP side of the scale. However I agree that it does contain some NLP components. If we break up climbing into the standard four components; strength, power, power/strength endurance, and general endurance. On the RP method, you are spending roughly 80-95% of your training time focusing on a single component at a time. I don't think it would be as beneficial to spend 25% of your time on each, as that won't allow you to really overload any factor. However, I am a fan of the 60-75% of my time on one factor, while balancing the others in the other 25-40% of my training time. I also find that allows me to climb a bit more and technique has never been my strong suit. So for me personally, adding in some more NLP components has been beneficial. In regard to Erick's comments on hangboarding; I do hangboard most of the year. I cycle through between repeaters, max hangs, and Bechtel's 3-6-9-12 methodology. As a reluctantly aging athlete (Over 35), I find it beneficial to always at least maintain strength, even if during non strength focused cycles, it may be only 15 minutes of hangboarding in a week. That's my two cents, although it's probably only worth half of that
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 7, 2016 11:20:07 GMT -7
if you were to look at a sliding scale, starting with strict LP moving to complete NLP, The Rock Prodigy method would be on the LP side of the scale. Agreed. On the RP method, you are spending roughly 80-95% of your training time focusing on a single component at a time.
Not during the PE/Performance Phases (which is roughly half the training cycle). During indoor training days I will spend about 20 minutes ARCing and easy bouldering to warm up, then ~30 minutes hard/limit bouldering, ~30 minutes campusing, ~30 minutes PE and 15-20 minutes of SEs. I would beak that down as:
-Endurance -Strength and Power -Power -PE -Strength
Even on outdoor days, you're going to spend a significant percentage of your time warming up (and possibly cooling down) on easier terrain and a relatively small portion of time doing strict PE during actual redpoint attempts or really long links. If your tactics are good, likely the majority of your time (or at least a significant minority) will be spent roped bouldering to work out and refine beta.
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Post by Jon on Jan 7, 2016 14:22:53 GMT -7
Not during the PE/Performance Phases (which is roughly half the training cycle). During indoor training days I will spend about 20 minutes ARCing and easy bouldering to warm up, then ~30 minutes hard/limit bouldering, ~30 minutes campusing, ~30 minutes PE and 15-20 minutes of SEs. I would beak that down as:
-Endurance -Strength and Power -Power -PE -Strength
Even on outdoor days, you're going to spend a significant percentage of your time warming up (and possibly cooling down) on easier terrain and a relatively small portion of time doing strict PE during actual redpoint attempts or really long links. If your tactics are good, likely the majority of your time (or at least a significant minority) will be spent roped bouldering to work out and refine beta.
That's fair. In reality, I think most of the structured plans agree on 90 percent of the same principles, it's just the ordering/sequencing and some of the finer points that get debated. Except for ARCing, everyone agrees on that As previously stated, I think any well thought out structured plan will help a climber improve at climbing, but it would be interesting to see a long term study done on all of the various training plans to really see what the measured differences really are.
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tiago
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Posts: 32
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Post by tiago on Feb 3, 2016 9:53:23 GMT -7
Hi, I'd like to share my recent experience with the NLP approach. First, I'd like to say that I've followed the LP approach for recent years and I started to enjoy moderate success with it (I'm 38, climbing for 15 years, many of them in the high 5.12, low 5.13 range). Last year I prepared my climbing calendar to peak around new year's, which means, I trained 4 weeks of hangboard, 3 weeks of Power and 4 weeks of PE. Then I got sick and my peak got a low . After reading Mark's Pulitzer-prize post "Delivered from Purgatory" (is it too obvious that I'm hoping for a reply? ) I figured out I could try something similar. However, I decided to incorporate some fingerboard training as well. So, it goes like this: Monday - advanced fingerboard, 15 sets on 5 holds: 3 finger (IMR) crimp, MR pocket, slopey crimp, IM pocket and 3 finger (MRP) pocket; Wednesday - Hard Bouldering, Campus and 4x4; Saturday - outdoor sport-climbing; Sunday - outdoor sport-climbing. I've been doing this for 4 weeks now, starting on a monday. The beginning was tough: on the first two weeks, the second day of outdoor climbing sucked and, consequently, on my third monday, I couldn't even warm up on the hangboard. In retrospect, I'm thinking that maybe I wasn't getting enough sleep. So, I decided to take it easy on that week's indoor wall training and I skipped the campus. From then on, even if I continued to feel tired during the weekend, I managed to redpoint two projects (one of them long-standing, and on the third attempt of my second day!). Actually, my hangboarding last monday (the day after the send) was very good, with a PR in one of the holds, even if it was only my 4th hangboarding workout of this NLP cycle. I am thinking that, from now on, I should cut the campus and do some more hard bouldering, because 1) the campus on the wall where I train PE is not as good as the campus on the wall where I train Power and 2) I feel tired and don't think that I'm able to take advantage of everything campus has to offer. I'm quite curious to understand how this happened, given that my hangboarding workout is right after 2 days of outdoor climbing. Also, regarding the PE, I've done 9 workouts (the 4 weeks before new year and these last five weeks). I've modified the circuit, hardening the boulder problems or making a new circuit on a steeper wall so that there is always a new stimulus. So, any thoughts about this? Sorry for the long post and I'm looking forward to reading your opinions...
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Post by slimshaky on Feb 3, 2016 11:14:31 GMT -7
man, climbing 2 days on and then doing an HB workout on the 3rd day is going to grind you down pretty badly. especially the further you go into your HB cycle. if you are serious about optimizing the training aspect, i would get rid of climbing on sunday. if you want to prioritize climbing, i would move HB to tuesday, move the wednesday workout to thursday and scale it back a bit on that one.
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tiago
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Post by tiago on Feb 4, 2016 3:37:28 GMT -7
Hi, I would tend to agree with you. However, although I feel tired when I start my hangboard workout, I manage to improve from week to week and I even managed a personal best in the slopey crimp and I'm close on the other holds (and I've done several cycles of the RockProdigy training). And this is just the 4th workout! Also, my performance during both days of the weekend has been very satisfying in the last weekends. I remember Mark saying "try that, write the results and let us know how it goes". Well, here it is I'll probably do a follow-up on this one in a few weeks.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 4, 2016 11:06:17 GMT -7
Yes, that is puzzling. I've recently gone through a similar experience which I also find puzzling (I did 2 HB workouts 31-days removed from the end of my Strength Phase due to my ankle injury). In my case, I set a PR in the semi-closed crimp during the 1st workout, then increased it during the 2nd, and set a closed crimp PR in the 2nd workout. During my 31 days of not HBing, I climbed a lot on crimps and open edges both on the rock and while Limit Bouldering. I've been neglecting pockets, and my performance on those HB grips was much worse. So I think in my case it makes some sense that I would be doing better on the grips I've been maintaining. Still, I would never expect to set PRs, especially since I believe there is a technique element to HBing, and so being in HB mode/practice should provide a noticeable boost in HB performance.
The most obvious theory is that, the Power Phase is supposed to make us even better, so we shouldn't be surprised. I would buy that argument if I saw improvement in my 1RM or something of that scale/TUT. However, I wouldn't expect true power training to make me better at performing 18 reps (over 3 sets) than just training the 18 reps would. In other words, I would think training specificity would be the more important factor, such that, the best way to train for 18 reps is to do 18 reps.
Another theory could be the classic "if you have no power, you have nothing to endure" argument that improving your top-end power makes sub-maximal contractions effectively less difficult. I don't really buy that either. I would expect any improvement in top end power to come at the expense of strength endurance. So again I would expect training specificity to be the key factor.
I think what's really going on is that 1) by the end of the Strength Phase we are plateauing hard. Our bodies have gotten used to the routine and are no longer adapting much, or quickly. Then you switch it up (to the Power Phase) and your body is stimulated again, so adaptation increases. And 2) I would guess the time-scale of finger strength adaptation is not well understood. We don't really know how long it takes to FULLY benefit from a HB workout, and that time period probably changes the longer we do HB workouts. We know that, early in the Strength Phase, 70 hours of rest is enough that we can go even harder, but that doesn't mean we have realized all of the potential improvement. Nor does it mean that 70 hours of rest is sufficient late in the phase.
So it could be that we are benefiting from some delayed adaptation. Perhaps some of that is related to the strong neurological component of HBing. Finally, perhaps the reason "practice" or "specificity" don't have more of a negative impact on these delayed HB workouts is that you're still not that far removed from the Strength Phase, so whatever technique is required quickly returns, and any HB-specific physiological adaptations haven't faded much if any. My own experience over the last week has certainly got me thinking about ways to include periodic HB workouts into my Power, PE and Performance Phases.
Anyway, for your specific schedule, one thing I've noticed in Big Wall Free Climbing is that often you feel whole-body fatigue that makes it difficult to do metabolically demanding tasks like hauling, jugging and hiking. However, your forearms don't require much metabolic support, and if you haven't been cranking especially hard, often you can whip out a great rock climbing performance despite the general fatigue and lethargy. This is especially true for short duration/power efforts. I think there might be something like that going on, where your weekend days might be generally tiring, but relatively easy on your forearms. It depends on what you climb, but often outdoor days are closer to ARCing than they are to LBing or Campusing.
That said, at your age I would be wary of sticking to a 3-days-on schedule for any period of time. Frankly I think you're lucky not to be injured yet, but you may be less injury prone than me and slim. It was surely wise to forego campusing. One suggestion for reducing volume would be to cut down to 10 sets on the HB. You could probably skip the 7-rep set and at least maintain your strength if not improve it. I would also keep the weekend sessions short. It's really fascinating that you've had some great performances on Sunday. I have trouble climbing well 2nd day on even when I'm fully rested.
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Post by jessebruni on Feb 5, 2016 10:55:16 GMT -7
I think there might be something like that going on, where your weekend days might be generally tiring, but relatively easy on your forearms. It depends on what you climb, but often outdoor days are closer to ARCing than they are to LBing or Campusing. I think this is often the case far more than people realize. I don't know about most people, but my training/gym sessions are rarely longer than 3 hours (which includes warming up and stretching afterwards), whereas my outdoor days are closer to 8 hours. In those 8 hours it's rare for me to get more than 3-4 good attempts on hard routes, so that's like one hard effort every 2 hours. Definitely not on the same level as training in terms of workout density. It's really fascinating that you've had some great performances on Sunday. I have trouble climbing well 2nd day on even when I'm fully rested. I also often have better performances on Sunday than Saturday, but this is typically only when I'm working a project. I think it's mostly for neurological reasons, my body seems to know the moves better on Sunday due to having practice on Saturday. Also I think that it makes a bigger difference for me because my projects are typically short and powerful, so muscular recruitment is a bit higher on the second day than the first day. I can see having worse performances 2nd day on would be a more likely scenario for projects which were a bit more on the PE end of the spectrum rather than the power end.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 5, 2016 11:42:33 GMT -7
I also often have better performances on Sunday than Saturday, but this is typically only when I'm working a project. I think it's mostly for neurological reasons, my body seems to know the moves better on Sunday due to having practice on Saturday. Also I think that it makes a bigger difference for me because my projects are typically short and powerful, so muscular recruitment is a bit higher on the second day than the first day. I can see having worse performances 2nd day on would be a more likely scenario for projects which were a bit more on the PE end of the spectrum rather than the power end. I think a big problem for me is that many of my projects are skin intensive (or else my skin is extra weak/sensitive), so I have trouble trying hard 2nd day on. That and I'm just not used to it. When I was dirtbagging I hooked up with a partner who insisted on climbing 2 on 1 off, so I did that for a while and eventually got pretty used to it, but I would climb 1st day in the am and 2nd day in pm to give my skin a bit more time to recover. It always seems extra sensitive the morning after a climbing day.
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tiago
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Post by tiago on Mar 3, 2016 11:00:14 GMT -7
Hi, Just thought about updating my non-linear training post above... As stated, I've been following a "performance schedule" that consisted roughly in this: Monday - advanced fingerboard; Wednesday - 4x4; Saturday and Sunday - outdoor sport-climbing. Since my last post, I've been able to keep up my outdoor performance, which motivated me to continue with this training. Actually, I managed to send an even harder project, specially because it's a route near my limit and completely not my style (a boulder move in the end of the route, consisting on a dyno off the smallest crimp I ever grabbed). Also, I managed to find a PB on 3-finger, 2 finger pocket and crimp (despite hangboarding after a weekend of outside climbing), which motivates me to keep on doing this part of the training. Also, I've been working on some new level projects, whilst trying not to put them on a pedestal . Generally speaking, I feel I'm on a very good roll and, with all the 4x4 I've been doing, I'm enjoying what I feel as an extended performance phase. As I realised that I have to use my holidays from last year until March/April this year (bummer!), I decided I'll have a week to spend in Margalef (damn!!). As such, I've decided to include a little power phase on the last three weeks, replacing 4x4 with bouldering/campusing. Although I lack a little bit the power for the big moves on the biggest rungs, I feel stronger than ever on the medium-sized (small to me!!) rungs. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that I didn't stop hangboarding. Now, for the remaining three weeks, I'll get back to 4x4 on wednesdays, whilst maintaining the strenght training on mondays. Hopefully, I'll be able to come up with some interesting onsighting in Margalef Thanks for reading, Tiago
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rroic
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Post by rroic on Mar 3, 2016 14:40:48 GMT -7
Hi fellow NLP-er You usually do not do Power days? I think it might be better to do Power in the gym (Limit bouldering) and getting your PE on the routes when you climb on the weekends? Also, do you do a base fitness (ARC) phase prior to going into NLP training? Also, do you schedule rest phases and, if so, after how many weeks of this program? Cheers, Roko
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