sean
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Post by sean on Jan 27, 2016 11:07:31 GMT -7
So let's say you're training for 2 types of climbing. Thin technical and slightly overhanging crimp/slower fests indigenous to the front range, and big juggy steep tufa pinching cave climbing in Kalymnos. Goals being hard redpointing on the former and onsiting with the latter. With base aerobic work being a particular emphasis (whether arcing or general aerobic capacity work), how specific is general aerobic fitness?
I've heard of contraction angle and loading making a difference when it comes to endurance training, but I'm not sure just how important. So is a good protocol for these disparate goals to split the sessions and do some work on the 10deg and some on the 30deg? Reason being is that I'm currently liking the 10deg sessions as it allows more technical focus (I can work body positions more efficiently), and I feel like all I'm doing on the 30 is paddling on huge holds and just working step throughs/flags/etc.
So what's been your experience? Anyone train for smith then go cruise some onsites at the red in a short timespan?
Sorry for the ramblingness, scatterbrained currently.
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Post by brendann on Jan 27, 2016 22:21:38 GMT -7
I think training steep helps vert more than the inverse. I would make sure to incorporate some closed crimp PE (I used foot-on campus intervals) to be sure you don't perfect open-hand endurance at the cost of closed-crimp endurance.
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sean
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Post by sean on Jan 28, 2016 12:57:05 GMT -7
I've been incorporating foot on campus intervals in my sessions lately and I can definitely attest to the benefits, it's been really helpful to have an anaerobic/strength/power/whatever endurance that I can replicate and quantify easily. Plus being able to focus my energy solely on the physical aspect rather than having to worry about ingraining poor movement patterns due to exhaustion. I've currently been operating with a 1min on/1min off x 5 for 2 sets. It's actually pretty impressive how quickly the ability to recover in that 1 minute window has improved, when I first started I was carrying a fairly high level of pump into the next "rep", now I'm recovering a lot between reps.
I guess I'll need to experiment more with steep capacity work, as it does seem that loading has a fairly high impact on aerobic capacity (more so than anaerobic endurance in my opinion). It's definitely a lot more mind numbing when I remove the ability to use a variety of movement/holds though. I wonder if there's a golden ratio, where you'd get the benefits of steeper capacity work while being able to transition into thinner technical climbing. Maybe I'll need to get to Earthtreks golden at 6am and set up the three systems boards at 3 angles, then transition between them...could be an interesting experiment.
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Post by Chris W on Jan 28, 2016 21:46:58 GMT -7
Can't really answer your questions directly.
I split my ARC time between two walls; my vertical wall (usually my first set and used as a pseudo-warm up) and my 15 degree wall. I used to spend a lot of time hanging on jugs on the 15 wall and have improved over the last year by making things harder in small increments, usually by making moves through smaller holds to rest on larger ones, or learning to rest on smaller holds.
I doubt I could ARC on my 35 wall, but if I tried I would almost certainly have to start on jugs.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 1, 2016 12:08:35 GMT -7
how specific is general aerobic fitness? I've heard of contraction angle and loading making a difference when it comes to endurance training, but I'm not sure just how important. So is a good protocol for these disparate goals to split the sessions and do some work on the 10deg and some on the 30deg? The conventional wisdom is that PE training in particular is highly specific to hold type. Frankly I haven't found that to be critical. I think the intensity and duration of your intervals are far more important than hold type (and to a lesser extent steepness). Obviously there are some limits (intervals on a slab will not help you). I agree with Brendan's point about steeper helps more with vert than vice versa. Regardless of my goal route's characteristics, I've had the best luck training PE on a steep (35-degree) wall with a variety of holds including 1-pad edges and up, pockets, and pinches. As far ARCing, I don't know. I think it probably doesn't matter very much since the Base Fitness Phase is so far removed from your performance periods. The good thing about ARCing is that you can afford to cover a lot of ground, so try to include a variety of wall angles and hold types in your ARC session. For your specific situation, I would probably train on a single circuit, but vary the length of each lap and rest times according to your goals. I would do all the short Front Range routes first, training laps on a 30-ish move circuit, working towards 1:1 duty cycle. As my Kalymnos trip approached, I would steadily increase the length of the circuit toward 50 moves (making a few crux moves easier if necessary), and upping the rest time as the TUT increased. So what's been your experience? Anyone train for smith then go cruise some onsites at the red in a short timespan? The season I did To Bolt I ended the season with a trip to the Red in which I onsighted just about everything I tried, including my first 13a (though not a particularly steep one: Table of Colors; I did do a bunch of steep onsights at The Dark Side). I had two weekends between the two trips to practice onsighting. |
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sean
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Post by sean on Feb 2, 2016 12:52:07 GMT -7
That's pretty cool that your experience matched up pretty much spot on to the random scenario I threw out there. I still need to work out a good circuit at ET that is in the golden range of difficult but doable (probably go for a 30deg & 30 move circuit on one of the system boards).
As mentioned earlier, I've been incorporating foot on campus board intervals. It's been a bit of a lifesaver as I recently came down with either a muscle strain or tendinitis relating to my tibialis posterior or soleus so training on the wall at a high intensity isn't really possible. It seems to be fit into the "metabolically specific" category and I've seen pretty nice progress (at least within the bounds of the training stimulus). Started with 1min on 1min off x 4 and was failing towards the end of rep 3, last Sunday I managed to barely complete a fifth rep (essentially failing right at the end). Now I'll probably make the circuit harder by either decreasing rung size or increasing the time on without changing the rest.
Hopefully the leg heals up and I can get back on the wall, and shoot for the aforementioned intervals. Any thoughts as to "clipping efficiency?" Last time I went to the red I had a lot more trouble dealing with the brief overloading due to clipping than pulling the actual moves (I had become pretty good at constant paddling on steep holds). Obviously this isn't much of a problem on more vertical terrain, just when a large portion of bodyweight is loading a hold for intermittent long periods.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 2, 2016 13:24:56 GMT -7
Any thoughts as to "clipping efficiency?" Last time I went to the red I had a lot more trouble dealing with the brief overloading due to clipping than pulling the actual moves (I had become pretty good at constant paddling on steep holds). Obviously this isn't much of a problem on more vertical terrain, just when a large portion of bodyweight is loading a hold for intermittent long periods. I got nothing n terms of physical training. You can always practice clipping if you think it's a technique issue. It may also help to clip at your waist instead of overhead, since that usually takes less time/effort. Kind of a unique issue to the Red. |
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sean
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Posts: 19
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Post by sean on Feb 3, 2016 11:29:45 GMT -7
Weird, I responded to this but it never posted it...
Anyway, it's not a technique issue, I clip pretty efficiently. Maybe it's just a lack of time spent on this terrain. Guess as I come closer to the Greece trip (probably start training more specifically in May), I'll make an effort to spend more time on steep terrain getting comfortable hanging in there to clip.
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Post by Chris W on Feb 3, 2016 16:45:02 GMT -7
I've had the best luck training PE on a steep (35-degree) wall with a variety of holds including 1-pad edges and up, pockets, and pinches. Interesting. I thought most of your routes (clear creek) are just off vertical. Why don't you train PE on more moderate angle, like 10-15 degrees? |
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Post by brendann on Feb 3, 2016 20:49:01 GMT -7
Because you are looking to train past the difficulties of your project. Also, steeper angles let you use bigger holds which means less skin damage which means longer training sessions.
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Post by brendann on Feb 3, 2016 20:52:16 GMT -7
That's pretty wild, Table of Colors was my second 13a onsight on a trip 6 years ago, but I don't feel like To Bolt is remotely possible. |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 4, 2016 14:52:33 GMT -7
I think it would right up your alley.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 4, 2016 14:57:25 GMT -7
Interesting. I thought most of your routes (clear creek) are just off vertical. Why don't you train PE on more moderate angle, like 10-15 degrees?
For one thing, Clear Creek routes vary a lot in terms of steepness. Many of my recent projects had horizontal roof cruxes. However, a bigger reason is, in addition to what Brendan said, plastic holds (especially footholds) can only get so small, so in my experience it's not really practical to replicate the same continuous difficulty on an indoor vert-ish wall that you find outside. And if you did, it would wreck your skin. I've actually tried it quite a few times and it never seems to work. I get better results training on the steeper wall.
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Post by Chris W on Feb 4, 2016 18:08:18 GMT -7
Thanks guys, good to know. That should save my skin and joints (and mind) in the near future.
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