Max hangs vs. repeaters

[bill]

Just wondering what everyone thinks about these two protocols for hangboarding.  Seems that for bouldering there could be more benefit to performing max hang style work outs, or at least including max hangs into some of the strength phase for increased hypertrophy.  I have found that I am still making fairly significant gains with repeaters (I have trained for about 4 years, but only in the last year have I been able to do a full RCTM schedule), but have read elsewhere (such as on Steve Maisch's website) that there are significant benefits to performing max hangs.  Has anyone done any experimentation with max hangs?  I am worried that the increased loads can be more damaging to supporting structures (elbows, shoulders, etc).  Would max hangs have more potential for hand injuries?


My short term goals are predominantly bouldering based, but I enjoy big walls and would like to be able to free some trad and alpine classics down the road (I am in school a long way from any big walls and bouldering is the only activity I can perform with regularity, almost entirely in my own facility. It will be at least 6 years before this changes, so at this point I am not focusing on training for them (walls) other than by including a short PE phase in my workouts. I built my own gym this fall which has a 16' wide 9' tall 15 degree overhanging wall and a 16' wide 11' tall 30 degree wall. I have a RPTC but no campus board).  I'm currently climbing at a V8 / V9 level, onsighting most V7s.  Current goals are in the V9 - V10 range. 

Would there be any benefit to including max hangs?  If so, is there a way to determine max hang weights from what I performed on repeaters or would I need to blow an entire session to figure them out?  

[tedwelser]

Hey Bill- 

I have mixed feelings about max hangs, and I think their potential benefit depends both on your goals and your age.   I used a max hang protocol before using a RCTM repeater approach and I found I had solid improvements (over no HB workout).  I switched to the RCTM intermediate workout for a couple seasons before adding back in some additional max hang work.  This promptly lead to some increased elbow and finger pain.  I think this results from the higher intensity and the fact that I am old (44).     I have since moved towards a more standard RCTM intermediate approach while accepting that 20 years ago I might have improved more with a max hang / repeater strategy, but for now, I am going to be more healthy with a slower and less intense approach.  

Also, if bouldering were my main focus (rather than Red River sport routes) then I think higher intensity would be more attractive.   

Now, given that bouldering is your focus, you can consider a max hang workout as part of your repertoire and that knowing your current 90% hang for a couple standard grips could prove helpful in building max strength.  For instance, your can use your home wall to warm up for an outdoor sending session but doing a set of semi crimp or full crimp 50, 75, 90% max hangs.   Because the intensity is higher I think max hangs are best limited to your basic 4 finger grips. In contrast, I think the RCTM protocol is better for training a range of grips.  

Anyways, good luck!   

[Jon]

I think a lot of people fail to do max hangs correctly. They see the word max, and think they should hang with a heavy weight that will make their arms rip free of their shoulders. I think max hangs can be very valuable following a protocol similar to what Eva Lopez recommends in hanging just long enough to finish roughly 3 seconds before failure. If you take max hangs to failure, you will likely have injury problems.

Since bouldering is your main focus, I would recommend adding max hangs. I personally hangboard most of the year, however I vary up the time and methods depending on what my training focus is. I alter between repeaters, max hangs and Steve Bechtel's 3-6-9-12 methodology.

[bill]

It's been about 2 years now since I first posted this and thought I would add my N=1 feedback on what I have learned. Max hangs seem really good at first but it seemed like more of a neuro adaptation than actual hypertrophy. I worked really hard to keep a leash on how hard I was hanging, but it was super easy to go over the line and injure yourself compared with repeaters. I was doing 10 sec on 3 min off with 2-3 sets per grip (but only 3 grip positions) and made it through the first season without injury, but in my second season had a significant injury to my ring A4 (right at the beginning of a power phase). I spent a long time rehabbing it and decided to switch up to repeaters. I've managed to stay injury free and am seeing substantial gains that are equal to what I saw with max hangs, but it feels more sustainable and less dangerous. It's probably also because I am in my mid 30s and don't recover nearly as fast as I used to.

[Chris W]

Interesting. Are you doing "repeaters" at 7 seconds on, 3 seconds off, for sets of 7, 6 and 5 reps? Have you experimented with shorter times and heaver weights?

I need to do more bouldering to get better, and was considering a season of 5 seconds on, 5 seconds off for 5, 4 and 3 reps, something vaguely similar to the "Max Recruitment" protocols listed in the Power chapter of the book, though with a different goal.

[bill]

Yes, standard intermediate RPTM repeaters. I never tried anything in between, as I have a pretty decent bouldering background and was starting to see more deficit in my endurance / power-endurance side of training, so I made the switch. Physiologically, it seems like it would make sense to use a shorter rep with higher weights as something of an "in between" workout between strength and power, to help transition into the power phase, as it would start letting the muscles adapt to a greater force for a shorter duration before they apply to limit boulder sessions. I think the injury side of it would keep me away, as I really don't want to set myself back again after all the work it took to get to where I am now and I get really tempted when I'm stacking the big weights to push it a little too far.

[Chris W]

Nov 9, 2018 18:23:54 GMT -7 bill said:

I think the injury side of it would keep me away...

That's something I'm concerned with as well. 

[bill]

I think if I count them all, I've probably had between 6 and 10 mild to moderate pulley injuries since I started climbing. The worst ones were all in my late teens and early twenties when I thought you could just jump on a campus board and show off without any kind of warm up. My stupidity has at least progressed to where I don't try to do any of that anymore, but it still flares up from time to time and usually when I'm around workout 4 or 5 on the hangboard and trying to squeeze one more big gain out of the season before the weights start to taper. With the standard repeaters, I know they might not be the fastest or biggest gains, but so far they've lead to injury free seasons. I think I'm okay with that at this point in my life.

[hangboarderjon]

This is a helpful discussion. Bill, have you tried using mostly repeaters, but then one or two max hang workouts to test your progress?

In my strength phase I just completed, I included two "test" workouts with max hangs. I think this is useful for the psychological effects of knowing where your approximate limits are.