erk
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by erk on Aug 16, 2015 16:01:57 GMT -7
There was a previous thread on gains made within a given cycle. What I am curious in is how much do you improve your personal best from cycle to cycle for a given protocol i.e. was able to hang 0lbs on IM pocket of 10th workout of last cycle and was able to hang +5 lbs on IM pocket of 10th (or last) workout of this cycle. I've been trying to increase my personal bests by a modest 5lbs per cycle. At 3 cycles a year a modest 5 lbs turns into an impressive 15lbs. What have you experienced?
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 16, 2015 20:20:06 GMT -7
I'm sure there are threads on here that cover that question as well. Keep in mind it will vary greatly depending on how "well-trained" the subject is. A raw beginner might improve 10 or more pounds between seasons. Someone like me will be fortunate to improve 10 lb per year. Also, some seasons are "easier" than others. For example, many folks struggle in the summer due to the heat. Typically I'm lucky to match my previous bests in the summer, but then I set new personal records during winter strength phases. Here's a snapshot of some of my data from a few years ago that might help answer your question:
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Post by jessebruni on Aug 17, 2015 8:40:32 GMT -7
I have definitely noticed more improvement in my untrained grips than the ones I excel in. I have basically not improved full crimp strength (my best grip) this year, but on the wide pinch (by far worst grip) has improved by 25 lbs this year. If I get a 5 lb gain on the full crimp I'll be satisfied, 10 would be spectacular but I'm not going to hold my breath for that one!
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Post by slimshaky on Aug 17, 2015 15:42:42 GMT -7
somebody is going to have to show me how to put up my PDFs as pictures instead of attachments i would say that in general, i usually will have personal bests on 2 or 3 grips (out of 7 total) each cycle, but only by 2.5 lbs or so. all total, i probably get about 5 lbs stronger per year across the grips on average. that would be my guess. in my climbing experience, i tend to increase my redpoint by a letter grade when i make a 5 lb improvement on a grip that is important for that route. that seems to be how it has shaked out the last few years, i would guess.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 17, 2015 16:35:43 GMT -7
somebody is going to have to show me how to put up my PDFs as pictures instead of attachments You have to upload the object to another website (proboards will not host the content), and then insert a link to the object's URL using the picture icon at the top of the reply box. I use MountainProject to host pics sometimes, or I link to pdfs/pics that are already posted to my blog. Others use Dropbox. in my climbing experience, i tend to increase my redpoint by a letter grade when i make a 5 lb improvement on a grip that is important for that route. that seems to be how it has shaked out the last few years, i would guess. I suspect that is not linear! Perhaps if you expressed it as a percentage of total load (body weight + applied load) it would become closer to linear. It would be interesting to collect some data. I feel like the difference between where I am now and when I did my first 14a is on the order of 40 lb across all grips. It would be hard to prove though because I've down-sized several times since then and the actual loads applied haven't changed that much by design. But for the sake of argument, the first season I used a closed crimp (the season I did To Bolt), I topped out at +35. I've down-sized 3 times since then, and my current PR is +55.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 17, 2015 17:21:11 GMT -7
Ok, here's some data on my closed crimp grip since I started training it. You can estimate how much downsizing grips affected the data: Month Yr pplied Loadd Oct 2008 35 Feb 2009 35 Sep 2009 30 Jan 2010 25 Switched to New Grip btwn workouts 4 and 6. What Feb 2010 15 May 2010 20 Aug 2010 25 Jan 2011 25 May 2001 30 Sep 2011 30 Jan 2012 40 injured after this season, lotsa rehab Sep 2012 -10 Dec 2012 35 Mar 2013 40 Jun 2013 45 Sep 2013 45 Dec 2013 35 Switched to new Grip at start of season (RPTC), then again before 7th w/o (Campus Rung) Feb 2014 50 May 2014 55 didn't send Sep 2014 55 sent Dec 2014 60 didn't send (sent 55 prev) Apr 2015 60
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Post by Lundy on Aug 17, 2015 19:39:50 GMT -7
Mark, Why the switch from the RPTC thin crimp to the campus rung? Seems like the RPTC grip is smaller, so that this was a bump up in crimp size, yes? Any reason? Were you targeting routes with just slightly larger holds (seems unlikely)? Personally that hold absolutely crushes me, and I could move to a campus rung, but I'm feeling stubborn and really want to keep working the RPTC crimp.
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andy
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by andy on Aug 17, 2015 20:21:31 GMT -7
Goodness! I can't be the only one who finds this motivating.
I switched over last season to the RPTC thin crimp and had similar numbers to your first season, (+35) and climbed my first 14 only 2 cycles before. Something about that number...
Anyway, its remarkable to me that you and others have added 25 pounds to a single grip in a single season. This cycle I planned to attempt 40# on the 9th workout and while this rate has been difficult but doable on most grips, it makes me wonder if I should be less conservative sometimes. What factors make you decide to go for such a large increase between cycles? For instance, since last year, I haven't really failed on an MR, but I have found myself still adding only 5.
Also, the prying part of me really wants to know some of your and others other personal records on the RPTC.
Andy
Edit: I think I'm confused on your switch, did you only do one cycle on the RPTC thin crimp?
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 17, 2015 20:33:17 GMT -7
Mark, Why the switch from the RPTC thin crimp to the campus rung? Seems like the RPTC grip is smaller, so that this was a bump up in crimp size, yes? Any reason? Were you targeting routes with just slightly larger holds (seems unlikely)? Personally that hold absolutely crushes me, and I could move to a campus rung, but I'm feeling stubborn and really want to keep working the RPTC crimp. First, the campus rung is shimmed (above it) with a 3/8" block, sowhat's left to pull on is a 3/8" deep edge with about a 1/8" radius. I have a couple issues with the RPTC crimp. The biggest problem is that it's too sharp/textured. I started by sanding off all the texture (between the first 6 workouts), but once I did that there were voids in the plastic underneath the texture. So even with the texture removed, there were still sharp micro edges I couldn't get rid off. On top of that, the edge flexes once you get about 200 pounds on it. I was afraid eventually it would snap off during a rep, and might jack up my skin in the process. So while the campus rung is 1/16" deeper, I use it because it's way easier on my skin. The Forge is designed to correct the aforementioned issues.
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Post by Will S on Aug 17, 2015 20:33:51 GMT -7
I would suggest that using the actual load (i.e. bodyweight + added weight), rather than just the added load, would be a better way to track these if you are interested in long term look at strength gains. Weigh yourself when you start the session*. (*I don't actually do that, I weigh myself first thing every morning and just use that weight in my logs)
My bodyweight fluctuates ~ 10lb over the course of any year, and I've been demoralized before based on comparing just the added weight (failing at a weight I'd done in previous cycles), then looked at my logs and saw bodyweight was 8lb lighter when I hit the previous PR of added weight.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 17, 2015 20:45:57 GMT -7
Anyway, its remarkable to me that you and others have added 25 pounds to a single grip in a single season. I don't understand what you mean here. Where does 25 pounds come from? What factors make you decide to go for such a large increase between cycles? Again, I don't follow. I don't set out to hit certain goal weights or anything. I start with workout #1, and I do what I can do. If I succeed, I add 5 pounds for the next workout. Some workouts I succeed, others I fail. I end up wherever I end up. This makes me wonder, do we have the same definition for "cycles"? To me, a cycle is the same as a season. It lasts 3-4 months and includes about a month of hangboard workouts (usually 9 or 10 workouts). I wonder if you're using the word the way I would use "workout". Edit: I think I'm confused on your switch, did you only do one cycle on the RPTC thin crimp? I did 6 workouts on the RPTC thin crimp, then I switched to the shimmed campus rung as described in my response to Lundy.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 17, 2015 20:56:01 GMT -7
I would suggest that using the actual load (i.e. bodyweight + added weight), rather than just the added load, would be a better way to track these if you are interested in long term look at strength gains. Weigh yourself when you start the session*. (*I don't actually do that, I weigh myself first thing every morning and just use that weight in my logs) My bodyweight fluctuates ~ 10lb over the course of any year, and I've been demoralized before based on comparing just the added weight (failing at a weight I'd done in previous cycles), then looked at my logs and saw bodyweight was 8lb lighter when I hit the previous PR of added weight. Agree, body weight is a useful data point. But, I think applying too much precision to these numbers gives them more credence than they warrant. As you pointed out, there are many variables that aren't captured, like temperature, humidity, quality of effort and so on. Pretending like the load used (applied or total) is anything more than a fleeting source of motivation is a mistake. Really, we only care about this stuff during the strength phase. Once it's time to tie in before your project, are you going to care whether your 3rd set resistance was +30 vs +35? (granted, you will care what your body weight is at that point
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Post by Will S on Aug 17, 2015 21:13:00 GMT -7
There's definitely a little of the false precision thing happening, but I track all that other stuff too! A log from any given hangboard workout for me has bodyweight, added weight for each grip and set, time on each rep (e.g. 7,7,7,5,3 for a set where I failed to complete all reps), room temp, humidity, and "general notes" where I'll comment on anything out of the ordinary, like not getting much sleep the prior night, being sore or stressed out.
Back in 2009, I dropped 22lbs of bodyweight between adjacent cycles, from 152 in the summer cycle down to 130 in the fall cycle. It was a very good fall that year, lots of sending. But the apparent gains on paper when I look back...mostly just dropping bodyweight, only added about 5lb of "real" strength.
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andy
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by andy on Aug 18, 2015 5:07:14 GMT -7
I have definitely noticed more improvement in my untrained grips than the ones I excel in. I have basically not improved full crimp strength (my best grip) this year, but on the wide pinch (by far worst grip) has improved by 25 lbs this year. If I get a 5 lb gain on the full crimp I'll be satisfied, 10 would be spectacular but I'm not going to hold my breath for that one! Oy, Hey Mark, It was late, I have an excuse.... Jesse also experienced a 25 pound increase (albeit, in a year), and in haste, I didn't notice that your data was was the RPTC crimp and the shimmed campus rung, (the graph confused me, because it shows three grips instead of four). And further, I cant math. My apologies. I'm still impressed, but not as much as when I believed that between December 2013 and Feb 2014 you became a mutant and went from 35 to 50 pounds, and that the difference between 35 and 60 was 25 pounds. oops At any rate, what I meant to say, is that I only give myself one chance to extend my numbers past my old personal best. If I add 5 pounds to the beginning of a cycle, I hope to make 5 pounds of gains at most at the 9th workout, I rarely do 10. I think we are using the same terminology. Thanks for everything. I need to pay more attention.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 18, 2015 7:04:20 GMT -7
No worries Andy.
Anyway, if I feel like I'm really crushing a grip I will occasionally step up by 10 pounds between workouts. That allows the possibility for making larger gains across seasons. Usually I do this by completing extra reps in the current workout first, to make sure I'm really as strong as I think. For example, if my goal for a workout (for three sets of a given grip) is:
Set1: 7 reps at +0 Set2: 6 reps at +10 Set3: 5 reps at +20
I might actually do:
Set1: 7 reps at +0 Set2: 7 reps at +10 Set3: 6 reps at +20
or
Set1: 7 reps at +0 Set2: 6 reps at +10 Set3: 6 reps at +20 Set4: 5 reps at +30
Keep in mind, often when I do this it comes back to bite me (with a failed workout, later in the season). Sometimes it doesn't though.
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