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Post by Chris W on Aug 14, 2015 7:09:28 GMT -7
Mark and Mike,
I'm curious as to your thoughts on the contribution of failure to your success. Mark, you've weighed in on the concept of "muscle confusion" before, but I'm curious if you think that the physical stimulus of your experimentation with different protocols, rep schemes, exercises, etc. contributed to steady progress and improvement. Do you think you would have seen the same results if you had a fine tuned program available since the beginning? Do you know of anyone that has followed the rock prodigy program with very little variance from the beginning? Have they seen steady improvement? |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 14, 2015 11:00:41 GMT -7
I definitely feel like I would be better off now had I started off knowing what's in the RCTM. Particularly since I suffered three A2 pulley injuries in my first two years of regular climbing. That was around the ages of 23-25, which could have been years of tremendous improvement (they wound up being years of tremendous improvement, followed by huge setbacks, then a lot of work to get back to where I had been, repeat). Then once I started training it still took a long time to learn important lessons:
-I spent a couple years using elastic bands to take off weight (instead of pulleys),
-It took about two years of doing 10/5 to come up with the 7/3 protocol,
-I didn't start doing supplemental exercises until I'd been HBing for years, and then it took many more years to come up with what I'm doing now (which I think has made a huge difference)
-I didn't do my first effective PE workout until 2007
-I didn't get serious about campusing until I moved to Colorado in 2008.
I could go on. I don't think taking wrong turns or spending time on inefficient activities was at all beneficial in a Muscle Confusion sense. I don't really buy into that on a macro scale. I think periodization provides the right kind of muscle confusion.
I can't think of anyone who has followed the program to the letter from the beginning. Most people get to the point where they know enough to be dangerous, and then they start tweaking things to suit their own needs. While I consider tailoring the activities to be "part of the program", I figure that's not what you mean. The nearest example I can think of is Ryan Palo, who went from 5.10 to 14c in much less time than I did (but I don't know how strictly he followed the program, and for how long before he started doing his own thing). I don't know his rate of progression exactly, but I want to say he was climbing 5.10ish in the 2003-4 timeframe and sent Just Do It in 2012.
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Post by Chris W on Aug 14, 2015 20:32:14 GMT -7
Where did Ryan go? His blog seems to have been a bit dead for a while. The video of him sending Just Do It is awesome.
In years to come, you guys should have lots of interesting data as a result of your book being published.
You and Mike seem to still be progressing, which is good news for me. I'm 32 and only found the Rock Prodigy method at age 31. My original motivation to train in the first place came from a desire to do more climbing. The stronger I am, the more climbs are available for me at any given crag. I'm hoping to continue to progress into my 30's and 40's, but I suppose time will tell.
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Post by Jackson on Aug 16, 2015 19:19:11 GMT -7
Just chiming in here. As I am a similar age to Chris. Mark, have you come across any examples of climbers who started in their late 20s, early 30's that have seen serious progress through using your program at all?
Curious as to how the body drops off after age 30, and what kind of progression is realistic after 30? I'm at 5.11b after almost a year climbing seriously, but not periodised training - I note that is where you were in your early twenties. So, I'm wondering if my tendons are going to be able to hack the kind of HB/Campus training that it takes to get into the upper 5.13 range, given my late start. There is always so much talk of a drop off in
I guess the follow up question is - would you approach the training any differently starting at 30 - or jump straight into it?
Great book by the way, a friend lent it to me but I had to give it back, so getting my own copy.
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Post by tedwelser on Aug 16, 2015 19:57:17 GMT -7
My experience is limited, but I can offer two illustrations. First is my experience. I used to climb in my 20's (up to 13a/V8), phd, tenure, 20 years and two kids later I was lucky to be onsighting 10ab. I was at 10c/d onsight when I read and started the RCTM program. (when the book came out the prior spring). I progressed steadily and sent Tobacco Road at the New (12b) on my second go in June, and 12a onsight in the fall.
My face climbing finger strength is better than it was when I was sending 13a, though my endurance is lacking, an issue I am addressing. I plan to exceed my max sport and bouldering grades. I plan to send a couple of 13b's and v9s within 2 years and lay the foundation to climb at least 5.12+ through the next decade.
My second observation comes from my main climbing partner who is in his mid 30's and has embraced the RCTM program, and has progressed well after starting bouldering just 2 years ago, and starting the program last September. He went from no lead experience to flashing 10a this spring.
Both of us jumped straight into it, though the experience is different for the two of us since my limitations are almost entirely physical, while my partner is doing a lot of new technical learning.
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Post by Lundy on Aug 16, 2015 20:08:17 GMT -7
Jackson,
I started climbing when I was 20, but took a couple years off in my late twenties due to moving abroad. I started again when I was 30, and on my first trip outside after about 9 months back I was only climbing 5.11 or so as well. Within 4 years of regular 4-day-a-week climbing, but not formal training, I was climbing hard 5.12. I then had to take about three more years off to move abroad again. When I started back again in January 2013, at 38 years old, I couldn't climb 5.11. That fall I failed to climb 5.12a outside. I also had a kid, so my chances to get to the gym and climb incessantly were gone. Thus the necessity of beginning more rigorous training. I bit different from you, as I had probably 15-18 years under my belt of on and off climbing, but I'm not sure how well you hold on to adaptations like tendon strength after three years off. Anyway, after a year and a half of very dedicated training, I'm now 40 years old, have a second kid so even less time to train, and am climbing mid-13 and still improving.
My general take, as a former elite athlete in another sport (swimming), is that if you start training rigorously when you're very young, yes you'll likely peak in your mid- to late-twenties (or maybe early thirties, depending on the sport, though I feel like this is really rare). However, much of this peak is specific to that sport. So unless you've been training like an elite climber for many years (as Mike and Mark might eventually run into), I think the ability to keep improving for a long time absolutely exists. I fully intend to climb my first 5.14 in my 40s, and look to guys like Bill Ramsey, who continues to climb mid-14 into his 50s, as inspiration that I'm a LONG way from my ceiling.
I've made a few modifications to the bros' plan to account for my particular weaknesses and the fact that my body unquestionably does not recover the same way it used to after a full-on pummeling of a workout, but these are the things I think you learn as you go. They certainly shouldn't hold you back from continuing to progress.
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Post by jessebruni on Aug 17, 2015 8:32:53 GMT -7
This is an interesting topic. I've always thought that people tend to overestimate how difficult 14a is. I don't see a reason why anyone in good shape who has been climbing for a decade or more and systematically training couldn't climb 14a. Maybe not 14d, but 14a isn't exactly elite. Now if you're just getting into rock climbing in your 60's there may be some limitations. But someone starting at 30 is still basically a young man. Will you climb better than Ondra did at 19? Probably not. But 15c is a GALAXY of difficulty harder than 14a, and definitely 13+. So the TL;DR is if you're under 50 and just starting to climb it's not unrealistic to climb 5.14.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 17, 2015 10:17:36 GMT -7
Mark, have you come across any examples of climbers who started in their late 20s, early 30's that have seen serious progress through using your program at all? Curious as to how the body drops off after age 30, and what kind of progression is realistic after 30? It's hard to provide specific examples because most climbers in their 30's don't advertise their rapidly advancing age  I would recommend you take a look at our Testimonials Page. In particular check out the entry by Shaun Corpron, who started climbing at age 30 and is now well into the 5.13 range. I guess the follow up question is - would you approach the training any differently starting at 30 - or jump straight into it? No. The biggest differences with age are injury accumulation and recovery time. The RP program already has tons of rest built in, so assuming you are a reasonably healthy adult you can probably follow the program exactly with few issues. If you have a history of climbing-relevant injuries (such as bad elbows, never-quite-healed finger tweats, rotator cuff problems, etc), you may need to make some adjustments to account for that. |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 17, 2015 10:27:05 GMT -7
First off, great job getting back on the horse! Your improvements, despite family, etc, are impressive. I'm not sure how well you hold on to adaptations like tendon strength after three years off. I don't have much in the way of proof, but I think it's likely your past intermittent climbing endeavors are benefiting you somewhat. You've probably heard the urban legend that it can take ~ 6 years for tendons to adapt to training. For the sake of argument let's assume that is true enough (or in the ballpark). Generally it seems that adaptations that take a long time also last a long time, so it would stand to reason that if it takes years for tendons to hypertrophy, then it would take years for them to atrophy. Regardless, it is well-documented that it's much easier for an athlete to re-gain a previous level of strength than it is to reach that level in the first place (one reason that allowing known dopers to re-enter competition is a serious problem). I think the ability to keep improving for a long time absolutely exists. I fully intend to climb my first 5.14 in my 40s, and look to guys like Bill Ramsey, who continues to climb mid-14 into his 50s, as inspiration that I'm a LONG way from my ceiling. I completely agree. There are many examples of climbers in their 40s, 50s, 60s climbing at or above their younger limits. For myself, as "well-trained" as I am, I still think desire and motivation will prove to be the most significant barriers to my improvement going forward. Even after all these years, it seems like every year I uncover a new weakness (and so new potential for improvement). And my fingers keep getting stronger year after year, albeit at a snail's pace |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Aug 17, 2015 10:45:28 GMT -7
I've always thought that people tend to overestimate how difficult 14a is. I think you could insert any grade, really. I have a habit of putting the next grade (especially the next number grade) up on a pedestal--treating it like some impossible feat that I could never accomplish. 5.14 was a HUGE deal to me for a long time, even after I had climbed a couple of them, I still approached each subsequent 14a like it was going to take a herculean effort to climb. But I did the same thing at 12c, 13a, 13c... Now I'm doing it again with 14d. Sometimes I'm a slow learner if you're under 50 and just starting to climb it's not unrealistic to climb 5.14. I think you're right from a purely physical perspective. But, I think us older men often have other interfering factors that can be hard to overcome (kids, wife, mortgage, career, etc). These should not be trivialized. When you're in your 20's, it's common and easy to devote your life to one relatively meaningless pursuit. Your friends (and perhaps more importantly--girlfriend) nod their heads and say "ya, man, go for it". Once you're in your mid 30's, your friends all have kids too, and they start wondering when/if you're ever going to grow up. Your now-wife doesn't find your obsession as charming as she did 10 years ago. My point is not that it's impossible, but if you are starting late, you should be prepared to address these factors because they may prove to be more limiting than physical strength in the long run. Off topic, but it never ceases to amaze me the dedication and devotion I see from all of you on this board. When I see the lengths that some of you go to to climb, it really inspires me. (Like Chris, training and sticking to the program despite a family and career in a very demanding field). I have two friends that I met through our kids, who have just started climbing in the last year. They are both in their late 30's. It's been really eye-opening to watch them progress (and struggle at times). Sometimes I forget how hard climbing can be (and how hard finding the time can be). Watching them has given me a greater appreciation for the challenges that the rest of you often face. |
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Post by jessebruni on Aug 17, 2015 10:53:13 GMT -7
Absolutely! I wasn't trying to trivialize the lengths anyone would have to go to in order to climb at that difficulty and maintain a regular life. I meant it as more of a "It's possible if you really want it" type thing. Whereas I'm not sure a grade like 15c IS possible without starting out as a kid and/or being genetically gifted, no matter how hard you try and how bad you want it.
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Post by jetjackson on Aug 17, 2015 12:54:46 GMT -7
Thanks for the rapid response everyone - seems like a great community here on this forum, so I made an account.
Ted, Lundy, great to hear your experiences. Thanks.
Inspiring stuff. I've been watching several climbers do 'Punks in the Gym - 5.14a' in Australia (my home country - I live in TX)... and I really want to climb that line some day.
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Post by Lundy on Aug 17, 2015 19:29:55 GMT -7
Ah yes... "kids, wife, mortgage, career..." Welcome to 5 a.m. in the garage! As long as I'm back upstairs to help get the kids going by 7:15, no one (a.k.a. my wife, my kids, my friends) really has any clue how ridiculously obsessed with a "meaningless pursuit" I still am! At least until later that night when my wife sees me inputting my workouts into an excel spreadsheet! |
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Post by Chris W on Aug 18, 2015 16:33:19 GMT -7
Off topic, but it never ceases to amaze me the dedication and devotion I see from all of you on this board. When I see the lengths that some of you go to to climb, it really inspires me. I really enjoy my training. My original motivation to climb was because I liked it. It's such an awesome combination of physical, mental and technical attributes. It gets me outside and involves lots of toys (ropes, harness, 'biners, shoes, and I haven't even broken into trad yet). My original motivation to train was to open up the possibility of more climbing. The harder I can climb, the more climbs I can do at any given crag. Plus, the coolest looking lines always seem to be the hardest, with a few exceptions (Plate Tectonics at the RRG).
Aside from enjoying my training, I don't have a lot of other "typical" interests. I don't have TV, don't drink at bars or "go out" much, and enjoy being at home with the family. I've never been much for parties and don't have a lot of friends  that I hang out with (just to "hang out"). I enjoy and value my family time more than anything else. I'm certainly not a workaholic. It's also easy to stay psyched when you only get to climb outside for about 6 weeks in the fall and 6 in the spring.
I'm very grateful to have a good, physiologically sound training program (that actually produces results) to help me focus my energy.
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I would recommend you take a look at our 
that I hang out with (just to "hang out"). I enjoy and value my family time more than anything else. I'm certainly not a workaholic. It's also easy to stay psyched when you only get to climb outside for about 6 weeks in the fall and 6 in the spring.