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Post by scienceguy288 on Apr 29, 2015 7:55:36 GMT -7
I can pretty easily flash V4s, but V5s take several sessions of projecting. I don't know if my gym just has a big gap there, but given that hard bouldering should be just above flash level and limit bouldering should feature problems that you cannot do in a single session, it would seem that these would both be V5s. Would it be more effective to work 6 full V5s or work 4 V5s and a few tough moves on 2 V6s?
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Post by jessebruni on Apr 29, 2015 8:58:32 GMT -7
In my opinion hard bouldering should be bouldering that is above flash level but still doable in a single session. Limit bouldering should be hard moves on problems you basically have no hope of putting together but can still manage to do one or two of the individual moves.
For myself I generally flash V6 and some V7's in the gym. So for me Hard bouldering is V7's and the occasional V8 that fits my style. Limit bouldering is some V9's and pretty much all V10's. I've never done a V9 or a V10, but I could probably put together a V9 in 5 or 6 gym sessions where I'm totally fresh. That's what I'd call a long term project. I've always thought that limit bouldering should be harder than that.
An interesting side effect is that since I'm in the pretty much always doing limit bouldering on stuff way too hard to ever send (but I can work some of the moves), and doing my Hard bouldering on stuff I can finish in a few tries, I basically never end up doing problems in the solid V8 range, which would require probably 2 or 3 sessions of work. It seems that the level I would say that I'm at, is also the level I never get a chance to work on.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 29, 2015 10:38:56 GMT -7
Limit bouldering should be hard moves on problems you basically have no hope of putting together... I agree with basically everything you wrote except that bit. If you can do the moves, you can do the problem...eventually. It may take a few seasons (or even years in my case) of training. Commercial gyms present a practical barrier in that a proper Limit Boulder problem will likely not exist long enough for you to send, but theoretically if the moves are possible, so is the problem. The single greatest advantage of a home bouldering wall is the ability to work a problem like that for seasons or years. It can be very motivating. I have some crazy hard stuff that I can't touch, but I have every intention of sending them someday (or at least watching my kids send them). An interesting side effect is that since I'm in the pretty much always doing limit bouldering on stuff way too hard to ever send (but I can work some of the moves), and doing my Hard bouldering on stuff I can finish in a few tries, I basically never end up doing problems in the solid V8 range, which would require probably 2 or 3 sessions of work. It seems that the level I would say that I'm at, is also the level I never get a chance to work on. I think that is a mistake. Don't be so strict. Somewhere between what you consider Hard and what you consider Limit, there should be 10 minutes or so per day (on average) for that middle ground. You want to practice working things across the spectrum, and there is value in doing things that are quite hard for you but still send-able. Once warm, I spend most of my effort between these types of problems and true Limit Bouldering, and it varies depending on my mood or what I've done in previous workouts. If every workout is spent repeatedly failing on the same move, what are you really training? For example, for me Hard Bouldering is hard V10 or easy V11*. Limit Bouldering is crux moves on short V12s. Most days I will do my WBL, then try to deja vu flash one or two of my old Hard Bouldering problems, then I will work a Limit Boulder move or two until my skin can't take any more. However, occasionally I will instead work a hard V11, something that will take me 2-3 sessions to send. I do this a lot more early in the Power Phase when I'm not yet fit enough to boulder at my limit, and the hard V11 cruxes feel like limit moves--after a week or so, my power has improved enough that such moves are now linkable, and I need something harder to truly be at my limit. But I also mix days like that in throughout the Power and Performance Phases in order to stay psyched and practice actually linking something. *these are all made up grades I use in my barn that are totally unverified, so take with much salt |
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Post by scienceguy288 on Apr 29, 2015 11:05:02 GMT -7
In my opinion hard bouldering should be bouldering that is above flash level but still doable in a single session. Limit bouldering should be hard moves on problems you basically have no hope of putting together but can still manage to do one or two of the individual moves. Based on this, it sounds that I should look for V4/V5s for my hard bouldering problems and then work a few V5s and maybe even a V6 that might be my style for the limit bouldering period? Thanks for the responses. |
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Post by jessebruni on Apr 29, 2015 11:57:38 GMT -7
Limit bouldering should be hard moves on problems you basically have no hope of putting together... I agree with basically everything you wrote except that bit. If you can do the moves, you can do the problem...eventually. I don't think we're really disagreeing here, just have a different perspective on timeline. The whole point of training is to get better right? So yeah, if you can do the moves you can eventually do the problem given enough time. Since I train at a commercial gym that doesn't leave problems up I don't think of it in terms of specific limit boulders evolving into sendable rigs since they don't get left up long enough. But I do think I could send them if they happened to be left up for 6 months. One other point I didn't bring up as that when I do limit bouldering I can't necessarily do ALL the moves. Usually I'm just working moves that are at my limit. That might be the crux moves of a V9, in which case I can probably do all the other moves, or I'm working moves on a V10 which may or may not be the crux moves. If they're not the crux moves, and they are still at my limit, then I probably can't do the crux moves yet. You make a good point about spending time between Hard and Limit boulders. I think my attitude on this is probably also an effect of training in a commercial gym. I have a limited amount of energy to put in, so Hard Bouldering gets some energy, and Limit Bouldering gets some energy. If I put in work on boulders in between that level I necessarily take away from some of the energy I would put into one of the other two. I think you're arguing that this is fine, and in fact useful, but if I'm only putting in 10 minutes or so at a time the odds of the problem getting sent before they end up stripping it goes down and it would be pretty discouraging to get close to sending a hard boulder but not doing so because I didn't send it in time. Then again, maybe I would send in time. I'll have to try it and see how it goes. Science guy, what you're saying sounds like a good idea to me. If you can do the moves on a V6 but they're at your limit I think it makes sense to spend some time on them in your limit bouldering. |
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Post by daustin on Apr 29, 2015 12:57:52 GMT -7
To expand on Jesse's point about not necessarily doing all the moves in a problem when LBing, I find that, particularly at commercial gyms where bouldering problems tend to be 10+ moves (and even sometimes 20+ on the tallest walls!), grades to be very broad guardrails for finding appropriate LB problems.
For example, I can commonly flash V5, quickly send V6 and send V7 after a few sessions at the gyms I climb at. However, when I'm doing LB, I can be working on problems anywhere from V7 (within my hard bouldering range) - Vdouble-digits (well outside my current feasible sending range). There may be a particularly short and powerful V7 that makes a good LB (especially early in the power phase, as Mark alluded to), but there might also be a 18-move V11 that I use as a LB (trying to do the first 3-5 moves).
This isn't a groundbreaking insight, but I'll admit that it did take a bit of mental conditioning to convince myself that it could actually be worthwhile to get on the super-hard problems with the intent of just working the first handful (finger-ful?) of moves. I think that because I'm so used to working problems up to V7, maybe V8, getting on a V11 felt a little ridiculous and just plain strange. But I did realize that it can be the best way of approaching LBing in the constraints of a commercial gym that tends to set more enduro boulder problems, so I think it's important to really take to heart that you should focus more on the string of moves you'll be trying rather than the number grade assigned to the problem that string of moves happens to "belong" to.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 29, 2015 14:50:05 GMT -7
That's a really good point Dan. That didn't occur to me since I set my own problems, but another huge benefit of that approach is that most commercial gyms these day have dangerously tall problems, so just working the start of a harder/pumpier problem allows you to get great work in, at the right intensity, low to the ground (where it is both safer, and more practical to try a limit move over and over). Now all you need is some colored tape so you can mark a new "finish hold" at the 10' point  |
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Post by jonfrisby on Apr 30, 2015 8:37:07 GMT -7
Jesse another thing I do is that during my PE and sending phases, once or less a week, I will do a strength/power maintenance. For this, I'll do light hang boarding and project at my redpoint boulder level. For me, I flash most V5s and some V6s. I project V7s for a day or two and 8s take several sessions. So I'm spending LB on 9s due to the fact that my gym's problems are overly long, so half a 9 is like an 8+ as there aren't really V9 moves on an 8 move problem). So I don't spend a ton of time during my hard bouldering portion of LB (Mark's 10 minutes suggestion or maybe 15 is about right). But I will spend an hour on an 8 while in sending season if it's like a harder/shorter version of my project - since I'm trying Great White (power crimping 13a) in August, I will be looking for 0-5deg overhanging crimpy things to work between PE sessions (usually my PE/transition phase is 2 PE one power/strength per week).
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 30, 2015 14:11:15 GMT -7
Jesse another thing I do is that during my PE and sending phases, once or less a week, I will do a strength/power maintenance. ...So I don't spend a ton of time during my hard bouldering portion of LB (Mark's 10 minutes suggestion or maybe 15 is about right). But I will spend an hour on an 8 while in sending season if it's like a harder/shorter version of my project Same here. Usually near the end of my performance phase I lack the power to effectively work any of my limit problems*, so instead I will work things I can send in a couple sessions. At that point in the season it's better to practice succeeding for a change anyway.
*last season was a major departure from this, and I was crushing shit at my limit (bouldering and campus) right up to the end of my season.
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