double dynos

[dryfarmer]

I can't do them for the life of me.

Context: Been climbing since 2006. Male, 39. Boulder almost exclusively. v4-v5 climber (have climbed countless v4s and flashed some, climbed 15-20 v5s, have climbed one v6 and one v7 [this is outdoor, I don't really pay attention to gym grades too much, even if I climb in the gym far more frequently]). Have always been somewhat interested in training. Have played around on the campus board here and there since I started climbing, and in the last couple years have done more semi-serious but brief campus board cycles, often with a lack of consistency in implementation. Am currently in what is really my first full-blown power cycle with consistent campus board work. I suck on the campus board generally but can at least move around and attempt ladders and similar. Double dynos are just sort of a joke.

Problem: Possibly partly psychological. When I try to double dyno (even on largest rungs), in my mind I feel like my shoulders are going to rip out of their sockets, and I very frequently put my feet down before really committing to a latch. Possibly partly physical. Even on the relatively rare attempt when I do commit more fully (I'm not sure that I've still ever really committed 100%), I tend to fumble the rung and slip off, while my feet touch down simultaneously - I do engage some weight on the rung though.

The fundamental question is whether I should even be trying this. Or if I should shelve it until I get stronger. The motivation for really wanting to work it into my routine asap is that to the extent I have ever partially latched a double dyno, it seems to really force generation of contact strength in a way that nothing else I do in training or climbing does. So this seems like a potentially valuable form of training, even if relatively not-climbing specific. I think this is more or less what the book argues too, iirc.

I'm considering any of the following:

1) shelve for a future cycle. I am too weak and old to try this without getting stronger first.
2) Just commit 100%. If I leave my shoulders on the campus board, so be it.
3) find some jugs on the climbing wall to do double dynos on even bigger holds as an intermediate step. My gym is not set up well for this so this might not be possible.
4) practice the flying and latching part of the movement by jumping off the ground, onto as high a rung as I can reach, latching with both hands. (I have no idea if this will be useful.)
5) try downward double dyno - dropping a rung and latching (I'm pretty sure this is harder(?) so a terrible idea, but not positive)
6) possibly there is some technique aspect that I'm missing completely that somebody needs to tell me about?

Any suggestions?

[adam]

Dryfarmer, are you able to complete the beginner campus protocol described in the RCTM? The beginner protocol is all large and medium rungs with the exercises of matching ladders, basic ladders, and max ladders to 1-3-5. Double dynos are not recommended until progressing to the intermediate protocol (which basically adds small rungs and double dynos compared to beginner protocol).

I'm doing the doubles in the intermediate program. For me, they feel not too bad on med rungs but really hard on small rungs. Definitely a learned movement that got easier with practice.

[dryfarmer]

Thanks Adam. At my gym, we have the metolius small rungs, and some kind of homemade-looking large rungs that I have never bothered measuring, but may be even bigger than 1-1/4". They feel pretty juggy to me, except when I try to double dyno on them. So it's hard to say if I can complete the beginner program since I don't have the right equipment for it. I've basically been doing something between the beginner and intermediate, using both large and small rungs. My max ladder on big rungs is 1-3-5. I can also do 1-4-5 but not 1-4-6. I am way worse on the small rungs, although I have pulled off a 1-3-5 and a 1-4-4, but this is way more inconsistent. In short, hard to compare my abilities with the beginner and intermediate levels in the book.

I can't seem to do the double dyno even on the large rungs, and on the small rungs they would be absolutely unthinkable. Any tips on the technique if you happen to have them are welcome.

I guess maybe just a process of either something will click in terms of the movement, or I wait until I get stronger. Hopefully I don't leave my shoulders hanging on the campus board in the meantime...

[adam]

I would keep practicing doubles on the large rungs. Maybe try again while taking some weight off. Unfortunately, it's hard to work on without looking like you're completely flailing. If the doubles feel really hard, I think your time is much better spent trying to improve max ladders.

[adam]

I would keep practicing doubles on the large rungs. Maybe try again while taking some weight off. Unfortunately, it's hard to work on without looking like you're completely flailing. If the doubles feel really hard, I think your time is much better spent trying to improve max ladders.

[jessebruni]

I always thought double dynos were a bit extreme for intermediate campus workouts. I do the intermediate one, but I don't do double dynos. I've done them in the past and they've always messed me up. I think that their advantage of contact strength can be made up in specificity of max ladders.

[dryfarmer]

Adam, taking weight off seems like a good idea, not sure why I couldn't come up with that one myself...

Jesse, what kind of issues? Elbow tendonitis or something else?

[sr]

Are they really going to help you that much? Just curious if you really need to worry about doing one exercise that has some risk. Esp an exercise that you don't want to commit?

I have never trained double dynos and climb v7 and did a couple of 13cs last season. My husband, v9 and 14b redpoint and he never trains double dynos.

YMMV but our goals are to minimize risk of injury so we can keep climbing a long time (I am 46yo / H is 45yo).

As a suggestion, you might "train" your body to double dyno by trying the movement with foot jibs on? Just to get a feel....

[jessebruni]

I've always experienced pain in my finger extensors from campusing. I've got a thread about it in the injury section. I've been getting it under control lately so that I can campus relatively pain free, but double dynos make it sooo much worse.

[dryfarmer]

Mar 26, 2015 8:35:48 GMT -7 sr said:

Are they really going to help you that much? Just curious if you really need to worry about doing one exercise that has some risk. Esp an exercise that you don't want to commit?

I have never trained double dynos and climb v7 and did a couple of 13cs last season. My husband, v9 and 14b redpoint and he never trains double dynos.

YMMV but our goals are to minimize risk of injury so we can keep climbing a long time (I am 46yo / H is 45yo).

As a suggestion, you might "train" your body to double dyno by trying the movement with foot jibs on? Just to get a feel....

Are they going to help that much? I have no idea. I wish I could answer that question accurately for all the various climbing/training-related questions that come up constantly. But I think your point is that you suspect they are not really going to help all that much.

Anyway, thanks for your perspective. It sounds like you and your husband are crushing! I guess I have to stop using my age as an excuse. Good inspiration.

Foot jib did the trick, by the way.

[dryfarmer]

In case this is useful info for anybody else...

In my case the problem seems to have been mental and or movement-related/technical. I tried a double dyno on large rungs with one foot on a decent jib. I either latched the first or second try, I don't remember. Then, still with foot on, I did a ladder of them. Then, just to see if I could really break something, I did a ladder going upward skipping a rung and then downward one rung (whatever those are called). This all felt strenuous but not as hard as anything I do on the small rungs. So I took the training wheel off and tried again, and stuck a one-rung double dyno either the first or second try. Then I did two in a row. Then a ladder of four before tiring.

So apparently I could do them, I just wouldn't accept it. (I wonder what else I can do that I haven't yet accepted.)

Now that I know I can do them, I have to decide if I think doing them is a good idea.

Anyway, thanks for the advice all.

[sr]

Hey- I am super psyched you figured them and that the foot jib helped. Campusing requires a different type of movement (learned).

Regarding my comment about helping - I think this depends on your goals, weaknesses etc. They may be incredibly helpful to you.
I don't boulder much so that type of movement is pretty rare on sport routes.

Something happens when you crest 40YO . You can still get strong, powerful and do your hardest grades, but you have to find the balance to stay healthy and not injured. The great thing is now we live in a society with lots of athletes from all sports pushing limits into the 40,50 and 60s to learn from.
Good luck!

[MarkAnderson]

Mar 26, 2015 20:25:39 GMT -7 dryfarmer said:

In case this is useful info for anybody else...

In my case the problem seems to have been mental and or movement-related/technical. I tried a double dyno on large rungs with one foot on a decent jib. I either latched the first or second try, I don't remember. Then, still with foot on, I did a ladder of them. Then, just to see if I could really break something, I did a ladder going upward skipping a rung and then downward one rung (whatever those are called). This all felt strenuous but not as hard as anything I do on the small rungs. So I took the training wheel off and tried again, and stuck a one-rung double dyno either the first or second try. Then I did two in a row. Then a ladder of four before tiring.

So apparently I could do them, I just wouldn't accept it. (I wonder what else I can do that I haven't yet accepted.)

Now that I know I can do them, I have to decide if I think doing them is a good idea.

Anyway, thanks for the advice all.

That's such a great tale.  If it makes you feel better, I coached Jstar through pretty much the exact same thing (we didn't use a kick plate).  At first he was like "there's no way I can do this", and within a few minutes he was doing ladders.  There really is a mental barrier for a lot of people.  Even after years of campusing I usually face commitment issues when it comes to trying the first set of doubles each season.

Regarding utility, Max Ladders are way more specific to climbing.  Some really smart people don't like doubles at all.  I spend less than 10% of my campus time on Doubles.  Where they are helpful is that they absolutely demand commitment and aggressiveness--as you learned yesterday.  I like them (in limited quantities) because they can teach you to really go for it, and if you can translate that mentality to the rock, it will help immensely.

[dryfarmer]

Mar 27, 2015 10:10:32 GMT -7 MarkAnderson said:

If it makes you feel better, I coached Jstar through pretty much the exact same thing (we didn't use a kick plate).

So you're saying I should be able to send 15a this cycle?

[dryfarmer]

Reflecting on this a little more seriously though...I think I'm realizing now that I probably never fully recovered psychologically from that missed diagonal double dyno I did in the gym back in the day that tore my ACL.