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Post by Zak! on Jan 30, 2015 12:50:51 GMT -7
Hello Mike and Mark and fellow forum readers,
I'm halfway through my first full hang board series and have a quick question. I'm fairly strong on the hang board. I can fairly easily hold the fat pinches and hang 10 lbs off my waist for my work out and can hold the tiniest crimp at body weight for my workouts along with decent other hangs. On a hang board, I can out hang most of my friends, but yet I can only boulder about V6, V7 if the movement fits me. I can out hang several of my friends who can climb V8/V9. I'm not sure if my technique sucks that bad or if it is a power issue? Haven't moved to campusing yet, but just wondering if my hang board strength to bouldering level is appropriate or if there is some other break down in the chain, either skill or power?
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Post by Zak! on Jan 30, 2015 12:53:22 GMT -7
Any suggestions for best way to pinpoint my flaws to improve? and/or for those who can hang board about the same, what is your bouldering skill level?
Thanks!
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Post by jessebruni on Jan 30, 2015 13:07:17 GMT -7
Post a video of yourself bouldering something. It should be an onsight and it should be at the highest level you're capable of onsighting (so V4 or V5?). There are a lot of reasons why you could be that strong but not be able to boulder harder. The first thing that comes to mind is technique, but it could also be lock-off or general pull strength not being very high, or it could be core strength.
Anyway if you post the video we'll be able to tell fairly easily if your technique is lacking or not. How long have you been climbing for? Are you primarily a boulderer or do you sport or trad climb more? More detailssss.
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Post by Zak! on Jan 30, 2015 14:10:30 GMT -7
I'll work on the video, but the other stats, usually onsight up through V5. Both boulder and sport climb (5.12d) and have climbed for 9 years.
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Post by jessebruni on Jan 30, 2015 14:41:57 GMT -7
That does seem inconsistent. Someone who has climbed for 9 years ought to have pretty decent technique. Your sport grade seems to match your boulder grade though 12d ~= V6/V7. It's possible that your issue is power. Why exactly do you fall on harder climbs, V8's or 5.13's? Do you have trouble doing moves? Do you get pumped? How do you move? Do you climb statically, or dynamically or both? Maybe the issue is your mental game? It's possible you just need to try harder. Again, having a video will help identify if it's a technique issue, or even a strength/power issue, but the best person to figure this out is yourself. Examine why you fall each time you do, if you come back to the same thing a lot then you have your answer.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 30, 2015 19:49:34 GMT -7
This is an interesting conundrum. You do seem to have quite strong fingers relative to your bouldering grade. I think posting a video is a good idea. Also, how tall are you, what's your ape index, and how much do you weigh? How would you describe your body type? How is your whole-body strength? Can you do lots of pull-ups?
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Post by Zak! on Feb 3, 2015 9:20:17 GMT -7
My stats!
5'11", 160 lbs, +4 ape index. I have average flexibility, but below average balance (possible culprit?). Most of my height is in my legs. Strength wise, I can do a dozen pull ups in a row or 4 with a 40 lb weight vest on. I can bench press my weight for 4-5 reps. I can also do about 8 deep TRX rows with the 40 lb vest on. I think my overall strength is OK, but I am not sure what to compare it too? Believed typical reason for failure is in the movement between holds. I can grab most holds on a V8/V9 and hang from each individual position, but struggle moving between holds. If I make the holds slightly larger (reducing the V grade) then I can usually do the moves, but not sure if this is due to lacking the contact strength needed to grab small holds quickly or if it is due to my poor technique, making moves harder than they need to be?
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Post by jessebruni on Feb 3, 2015 9:30:23 GMT -7
I feel your pain dude. Moving between holds is my weakness as well. I find that this is related to three things.
1) Relatively low core strength (not endurance)
2) Lack of power in pulling muscles (not pull strength)
3) Lack of lock-off strength.
Working on bouldering explosively, specifically training core strength by doing supplemental exercises, and training lock-offs has helped me with this. Also of use has been campusing, which helps with explosive power off smaller holds. I've been considering adding explosive pull ups into my routine as well to help with this.
Obviously there's no substitute for good technique, but often there's no substitute for raw power either. If you can hold onto credit-cards, but can't move off them, it may be lack of power.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 3, 2015 11:24:01 GMT -7
Wow man, you should definitely try to climb harder! You really seem to be all-around strong (at least no glaring weaknesses) and fit (BMI-wise). Movement could be the cause, but I wonder if you have a power/contact strength deficit. Some people are quite strong in static situations (like hangboarding) but not good at contracting quickly. That used to be a huge problem for me. I would suggest you continue through the cycle and see what happens when you get to the campus board. If you have a lot of trouble there, then you will have your answer. In the mean time it wouldn't hurt to post some climbing video.
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Post by Zak! on Feb 3, 2015 13:51:47 GMT -7
Thanks Mark and Jesse for all of the feedback. I'll work on the video, but haven't had a chance to make it to the gym with the snow storm in the midwest. Hoping to get there in the next couple of days. I've got roughly two more weeks of hangboarding before I try campusing. As much as I want to try it right now, I am staying disciplined in my approach and following the plan.
With campusing, in the past, I have only done a few hand over hand ladders, very sporadically. I'll start off similarly to work my way back into it, but just wondering if you had any thoughts on roughly what I should be able to do to boulder V8/9. We have the metolius rungs in the gym, all 3 sizes and I think are board is set to a pretty standard angle and spacing between rungs. I tend to do better with a rough goal in mind of what I want to accomplish, so maybe 1-4-7 on the small rungs? Not sure if that is hard enough or too hard, so any help with a rough campus goal would be much appreciated.
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Post by joshvillen on Feb 3, 2015 14:05:10 GMT -7
I would be really interested in people giving hang board workouts and campus moves v-grades or route grades (even though its more subjective than climbing), which is saying something.
I always thought that double clutching small rungs ( up or down, for 3 moves) was equatable to a crimpy v9. Doing 1-5-8 on jugs feels a little harder than most v10's ive done. A one arm pull-up on a dominant hand feels like v8??? Hahaha
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Post by slimshaky on Feb 3, 2015 14:49:12 GMT -7
i also think it would be really interesting to see various folks' HB numbers, campus workouts, v-grade, rope grade. i am probably in a somewhat similar boat in terms of HB strength compared to campusing or v-grades. i also have that problem of being able to hang holds, or do a hard move, but often have a hard time transitioning between the moves.
on a lot of routes that i have been on, for me the crux has been 'setting up for the crux'. i can often do the move off of the hang, but setting up for the move can unravel it for me. my guess is that my body positioning isn't that great, and i could definitely improve on being able to coordinate different parts of my body firing at the same time.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 3, 2015 15:58:09 GMT -7
It's hard to give a good campus goal (or assign a grade) because it is really reach-dependent. When I first did 1-4-7 I was bouldering in the V10/11 range (on fingery problems with tiny footholds and short reaches . Any folks with similar dimensions care to spray some stats? To Josh's question, I've done 1-5-8 and I've bouldered V12 (according to Dan Woods and Jon Cardwell--JStar would probably say V10). Still, I think the reach-dependency makes a campusing grade chart pretty meaningless. It would need to be a grid or a set of curves that account for reach. If you had a large-enough database of campusers, an enterprising statistician might be able to do it. Where are all the grad students when you need them?
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 3, 2015 15:59:04 GMT -7
It's hard to give a good campus goal (or assign a grade) because it is really reach-dependent. When I first did 1-4-7 I was bouldering in the V10/11 range (on fingery problems with tiny footholds and short reaches . Any folks with similar dimensions care to spray some stats? To Josh's question, I've done 1-5-8 and I've bouldered V12 (according to Dan Woods and Jon Cardwell--JStar would probably say V10). Still, I think the reach-dependency makes a campusing grade chart pretty meaningless. It would need to be a grid or a set of curves that account for reach. If you had a large-enough database of campusers, an enterprising statistician might be able to do it. Where are all the grad students when you need them?
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Post by slimshaky on Feb 4, 2015 10:09:53 GMT -7
i think the reach dependency is probably true at the ultra extreme end of campusing ability, but for most of the population i don't think it is really the limiting factor at their current campusing level. having watched a lot of folks campusing, both in person and in video, it seems like folks that are small and powerfully built are the best at it. the only person i have ever seen that is pretty good at it and that i would consider tall is eric decaria. even then, i don't think he is really that tall. maybe 6 foot? as with pretty much anything in climbing, i think there will be trade-offs. for example, i would think that a taller person will be more likely to have a greater difference in finger length than a shorter person, which would be a pretty significant disadvantage. also, the usual weight versus gun size, etc. shorter people are probably more coordinated also, at least that's what i tell my wife when i accidentally break something
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