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Post by gargano on Oct 9, 2014 12:34:55 GMT -7
Hey all.
I have a specific question regarding training the 1/2 Crimp/Semi-Closed Edge grip on the HB. It was touched on in another thread, but I thought the question was specific enough to warrant a new thread.
In the Hangboard Max # thread (http://rockprodigytraining.proboards.com/thread/163/hangboard-max), Tedwelser pointed out that the majority of the holds used in the Intermediate HB Routine (listed at the top of page 117) focus on open-hand grip strength, with the exception of the Small Semi-Closed Edge. Due to hand geometry, even this hold seems to fall somewhere in-between open-hand and semi-closed (1/2 crimp). For me, in the semi-closed position, my index finger is still straight/extended, while the MRP are flexed at an obtuse angle.
The question is: does this position (with the index extended and the MRP partially flexed) really help with crimp strength? And it itches at the question of what really differentiates a 1/2 crimp from a full-crimp. Some reading shows that a full-crimp is where the thumb fully wraps around the index finger and the IMRP are flexed to greater than or equal to 90 degrees. A half-crimp would then be something between an open-hand grip and a full-crimp; however, based on hand geometry, the angle of flexion between fingers varies in each position. So, is a 1/2 crimp just a hold where all four fingers are flexed to some extent, and the thumb is not wrapped?
Don't mean to get too esoteric here, but it seems like an interesting question that would have importance to training specificity. Especially considering the importance of training the crimp, while not entering the dangerous zone of training a full-crimp, at least as a person newer to the rigors of HB training.
Either way, I noticed a significant difference in ability using a the 1/2 Crimp with all four fingers flexed versus the "1/2 Crimp" with MRP flexed and index extended.
Thoughts?
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Post by MarkAnderson on Oct 9, 2014 14:03:51 GMT -7
I'm not totally clear what your question is, but I will give you some of my thoughts.
I try to discourage people from training closed crimps on a hangboard because I think its somewhat risky. It's wise to be conservative when injuries are a possibility. I think you should have a lot of experience listening to your body in an intense training framework before you do something that could get you seriously hurt. So that is essentially why we don't recommend closed crimps for the first two routines. We want you to get at least a few cycles worth of experience using a hangboard before you start redlining. Additionally, I managed to climb 5.14 without training closed crimps on a hangboard, so I know closed crimp hangboard training is not essential for the vast majority of climbers.
Shifting gears a bit, there is a study cited in the book that says that isometric training is specific to joint angles, and I think it gives a window of +/- 15 degrees. I'm sure it's not that clear cut, but I would bet the closer you can get to the specific joint angle you are hoping to improve, the better the results. The "half crimp" is surely close enough to the right PIP joint angle (for closed crimping) in the case of the M and R fingers. It is surely not in the case of the I and P. Is that good enough? Hard to say. It was good enough to get me up my first 5.14 (and a lot of other hard crimpy routes along the way).
Since I started training closed crimps on the hangboard my crimping ability has gone through the roof, and I've had one major crimping-caused injury. Each climber needs to weigh the benefits vs the risk for themselves. To do that wisely, you need experience. That is why we recommend patience.
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Post by RyanJohnson on Oct 10, 2014 12:24:11 GMT -7
The question is: does this position (with the index extended and the MRP partially flexed) really help with crimp strength? And it itches at the question of what really differentiates a 1/2 crimp from a full-crimp. Some reading shows that a full-crimp is where the thumb fully wraps around the index finger and the IMRP are flexed to greater than or equal to 90 degrees. A half-crimp would then be something between an open-hand grip and a full-crimp; however, based on hand geometry, the angle of flexion between fingers varies in each position. So, is a 1/2 crimp just a hold where all four fingers are flexed to some extent, and the thumb is not wrapped? It'd probably be useful to form a committee to officially designate what hand positions correspond to a given description. All kidding aside, when I train the half crimp grip, I make it a point to not have my index finger extended. I might start referring to the version with an extended index has a half open hand.... Anyways, here is a photo collection and descriptions of what I feel are proper grip positions. -A full crimp is more about hyper-extension of the DIP joint. Stevie Haston - Full crimp no thumb
-A half crimp involves a roughly 90 degree angle in the PIP joint, and nearly horizontal in the DIP joint across all fingers. Climb Strong - Half crimp-A half open hand would involve an extended index and pinky finger. Stevie Haston - Half open hand
-An open hand would involve extension in all fingers. Climb Strong - Open hand
From my experience, training the half crimp as defined above does positively influence full crimp strength, incorporating the thumb wrap or not. I initially started training just the half open hand and didn't see much of a benefit in crimping ability. It wasn't until I started using the half crimp that I saw any notable progression. |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Oct 10, 2014 14:13:11 GMT -7
The "Stevie Haston - Half Open Hand" is what I mean when I say "Semi-Closed Crimp". I use this grip in every HB workout and I use it all the time on rock and plastic.
My problem with the "Climb Strong half Crimp" is that you never use it in real climbing (except maybe when you're on easy terrain). Perhaps it has practical application as a crimp simulator, but I'd say you might as well just train a closed crimp. If you're trying just as hard, I would think the strain on the PIP joint would be pretty much the same. Also, I really don;t like grips that can open up as you fatigue. I'm guessing if you trained this grip it would slowly morph into something else (like the SCC or Open Grip) as you got tired/progressed. I'm just speculating though, because I've never trained the Climb Strong half crimp.
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Post by gargano on Oct 10, 2014 14:30:16 GMT -7
Yeah, we're splitting hairs here, but this is a training forum, so splitting hairs over technique and methods is all part of the game, right?
I'm not seeing any difference between 'Open Hand' and 'Semi-Closed Crimp'/'Half-Open Hand'. First, the 'Semi-Closed Crimp' described in the RCTM is the same grip as what Ryan is referring to as the 'Half-Open Hand'. I and P fingers are extended, while the M and R fingers are flexed at ~ 90-degrees. Due to hand geometry (MR longer than I & P), a true 'Open Hand' cannot be achieved on fixed-depth edge. To get the I & P fingers on the edge, the M & R fingers have to flex at the PIP. For example, look at the RCTM photos of 'Open Hand' and Semi-Closed Crimp' on page 55. The pictures are taken from different sides, but the hold is the same and the grip looks the same. Therefore, a 'Half-Crimp' would have to be what is shown here Climb Strong - Half Crimp. The index finger should be flexed at ~ 90-degrees along with the M & R fingers. No thumb wrap support. Depending on hand geometry the pinkie may or may not be flexed at the same angle. Ryan, it sounds like your crimp strength really improved once you incorporated flexion in your index finger. This makes sense, as it corresponds with the research Mark cited regarding the +/- 15-degree joint angle specificity in isometric training.
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Post by gargano on Oct 10, 2014 14:43:37 GMT -7
My problem with the "Climb Strong half Crimp" is that you never use it in real climbing (except maybe when you're on easy terrain). Perhaps it has practical application as a crimp simulator, but I'd say you might as well just train a closed crimp. If you're trying just as hard, I would think the strain on the PIP joint would be pretty much the same. Also, I really don;t like grips that can open up as you fatigue. I'm guessing if you trained this grip it would slowly morph into something else (like the SCC or Open Grip) as you got tired/progressed. I'm just speculating though, because I've never trained the Climb Strong half crimp. Hey Mark. Just saw your response after I posted. I agree that the Climb Strong Half-Crimp has practical application as a crimp simulator, due to the angle specificity. I disagree that you might as well train a Full-Crimp for two main reasons. One, a Full-Crimp (thumb wrapped) puts more stress on the DIP joints as they hyperextend, and it 'locks' the fingers into the stressful/potentially dangerous 90+ degree angle at the PIP joints. Two, the wrapped thumb supplements the index finger in a way that prevents the index finger from taking the load, and therefore prevents it from gaining strength. From my limited experience training the Climb Strong Half Crimp, it does open slightly near the end of a hard set due to fatigue. Arguably, this is good, because it puts more load on the forearm muscles, which are taking a greater amount of the load. Opposed to the Full-Crimp, which puts a greater amount the stress on the joints, instead of the forearm muscles and connective tissue. This is my argument for training the Climb Strong Half Crimp: It's more angle specific than the Stevie Haston Half-Open Hand, particularly in the index finger. And it puts more of the load on the forearm muscles, as opposed to fully 'locked' PIP and hyperextended DIP joints in a Full-Crimp. |
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Post by RyanJohnson on Oct 10, 2014 16:35:01 GMT -7
The "Stevie Haston - Half Open Hand" is what I mean when I say "Semi-Closed Crimp". I use this grip in every HB workout and I use it all the time on rock and plastic. My problem with the "Climb Strong half Crimp" is that you never use it in real climbing (except maybe when you're on easy terrain). Perhaps it has practical application as a crimp simulator, but I'd say you might as well just train a closed crimp. If you're trying just as hard, I would think the strain on the PIP joint would be pretty much the same. Also, I really don;t like grips that can open up as you fatigue. I'm guessing if you trained this grip it would slowly morph into something else (like the SCC or Open Grip) as you got tired/progressed. I'm just speculating though, because I've never trained the Climb Strong half crimp. I certainly use the Half open hand all the time as well and highly suggest to others that they do it as well instead of crimping so much. The routes around here are thin face vertical/slightly overhanging crimp fests so any way to avoid crimping so much and still get up the routes is to be rewarded! Since I train the half crimp I tend to use it quite often. It's replaced full crimping on 1/2"-1/4" edges for me. It doesn't feel nearly as secure to Half open hand these yet. I tend to have to full crimp less, and thus strain my DIP joint less, and it feels as if there is less overall hand strain than during a balled up full crimp. It also come in handy during the odd piano-match on a small hold because the thumbs are already out of the way. Of course this applies to the Half open hand as well. The prior posts by Gargano explain why it seems beneficial to me. I do agree that the strain is most likely the same on the PIP joint, but it feels less taxing at the DIP joint, since ideally this joint shouldn't be hyper-extended. While hangboarding, there is a concern of the grip failing as with any other grip but I consider the index finger extending as a sign of failure and aim to have that occur during the last rep or two. So, consider it a simulator, but a safer option to influence crimp strength than full crimping. |
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Post by slimshaky on Oct 13, 2014 9:19:16 GMT -7
one reason i don't train the climb strong half crimp is that when you get tired and it starts opening up, your first digit knuckle (index finger usually, although i have had my pinky do it also) can 'pop' from the hyper-extended position to the extended position. i have had this happen a couple times and my knuckles really hated it.
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