My HB strength gains are slower for semi crimps

[tedwelser]

I am posting this because I am wondering if other people have data that shows if their progress on semi closed crimps is different than their progress on open hand grips.  Thoughts on this data are welcome too.

The the graph above plots my 10 second max weight hangs from the grips listed at right. The Y axis reports the amount of weight added to the harness or subtracted via pulleys. The graph shows that extra weight held for 10 seconds increased during the 3 week cycle for all of the grips by some amount between 12 and ~30 pounds, depending on the grip. Two of the grips I added on the 3rd workout (large edge and crisp crimp) and one grip I skipped one week due to lack of access. [Note: during this time period my bodyweight + clothes and harness totalled to about 173 pounds]



The plot is ok, but it leaves me wondering: "Which grips did I gain the most, and on which the least? Is there any logic or pattern to the average amount of gains?"



To answer these questions I calculated the average weight held for the first 6 observations and final 6 observations for each grip, and then calculated the difference between the end and the start. Then I sorted by the size of the increase, from smallest to greatest.



For the sake of clarity I omit the "Crisp Crimp" from the next graph simply because I was not actually maxing out performance on that hold. I was gripping that edge with a closed crimp and I was treating it extremely cautiously, so I don't think that the change accurately represent a gain in strength.




The chart is pretty informative, and it raises some interesting questions about how different types of grips are related and how strength gains might be related to both the grips used and the physiology of the athlete.



Sorting by change in additional pounds held groups the holds according to grip type. The first two (small rung campus board and small edge) are both gripped using a semi open crimp. The next four are all gripped using an open hand grip.

• I gained strength with the open hand grip much more quickly than with the closed hand grip
  
• For every 2 extra pounds in the semi crimp grip I gained 3 pounds in the open hand grip. 50% more progress seems like a big difference (do other people notice a similar difference in their progress?)
  
• I might just be me. Historically I have been stronger on open hand holds and on moves that emphasize larger holds and endurance.
  
• Crimps and power on crimps have often been limiting weaknesses
  
• One interpretation of this chart is that I gain strength in open hand holds faster because those muscles respond more strongly to stimulus than do those involved in crimping.
  
•  An alternative explanation is that I was training more holds (twice as many) that relied on open hand rather than semi crimp grips.
  
• One final observation involves the pinky finger
  
• With the exception of the MRP hold, both of the semi crimp holds engage the pinky finger more prominently than do the open hand grips. The pinky is by far the weakest finger.
  
•  It seems possible that a limiting factor of the semi crimp grip is that is loads the pinky more than the open hand grips, and in the semi crimp the two middle fingers are not in the open hand position which has been highly trained in all the open hand hold grips.
  

In conclusion, I don't have enough information to know if the patterns I see in these results are completely idiosyncratic or if they might suggest something more general about how the training of related types of holds influence development of strength in related grip types. It would be great to hear from other climbers who have recorded similar data from their training sessions.

[Jack Ziegler]

One observation I see is that two finger, IM and MR, pockets are not being trained. I actually find the the quickest gains there. I also see quick gains on the I and M mono pockets, however, after about three work outs on those, they feel tweaked and I just do the two finger pockets. I'm using the trango board and get the slowest gains on the pinches and the SVDER edge. I agree with the pinky finger possibly limiting the crimp gains as it seems that that finger is always the first one to slip off. The crisp crimp you are calling it is the super duper small sharp crimp on the trango board? If so I've had varying results on that grip too. This is my second strength phase I am in and I have decided to take the risk and try closed crimp with my thumb over my index and have made faster gains that way. One question I have for mark and mike is why is there no RP pocket mentioned in the book or on the trango board? I know sport climbing you very rarely encounter that hold but couldn't it help crack climbing and transfer to other grips? I've been training RP in the 4F pocket. For my first strength phase I was using the board at the gym and had issues on the crimp and on the pinches because they had less friction and were greasy and it was always warm upstairs. I am now doing my workouts with my own board at home and keeping the temp below 65. I also put my fingers over the ac before each set. I'm doing more than the recommended number of grips so I am always mixing up the order and see gains on different days. I am almost always doing the crimp as the second grip because most of my goal routes are crimpy.


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[tedwelser]

Yeah-  I am missing the 2 fingers this season.  Next season I plan to replace the IMR with the IM and MR.  I just wanted to get my strength up on the IMR first.  I maxed that out relative to my goals of how much weight to add, so I will move on in winter.   

My goals this season have more to do with onsighting or making quick work of 12- routes at the Red and New, so given the particular routes I want to do I don't think I will have any limiting crux moves on 2 fingers.

I am using the crisp crimp mainly as a "pre-habbing" hold so I am not really pushing intensity on that.   I am most interested on building comfort and familiarity with the grip to hopefully prevent injury when I encounter similar edges on routes.  

You say you mix up your order of holds, do you find you make most progress on the ones that come early in the workout?   I do my small edge second after the warm up to try to make sure I am fresh for it, since I want to make sure it progresses.

One thing I wonder about is if I should have three holds that use semi crimps in my workout, rather than just two.  I am really glad that I included weighted hangs from the small campus rung in my hang board workout.  I got up to +40 pounds on the smalls and so this season my campusing is much much better than spring.  

Spring was my first season campusing in over a decade, and I could just barely do 4 rungs worth of standard ladders on the mediums (moon spacing).   On my first session this season I could do standard ladders on the smalls which was a huge improvement that is a direct result of the hangboarding.   I was getting ready to try some small max ladders when I split the skin on my second pad of my index finger.   

I had forgotten to tape for skin protection.  I am psyched to try a full workout this Sunday and will be sure to tape up.


  

[Jack Ziegler]

Yeah I tend to get the most gains on the earlier grips. I also try to avoid doing two grips in a row that use the same finger. Like I won't do IM proceeded by MR. I will put the pinch sets between. Also, I have found for the monos and two finger pockets, sometimes if my fingers are feeling stiff, it hurts less to do them later in the session. Like sometimes when I do IM, my ring finger hurts. So if I do RP first, my ring finger gets stretched hard and sometimes this makes the other pockets more comfortable. I don't tape, I just keep my fingers sanded smooth on off days. When I do the crisp crimp with a closed grip, I loose a significant amount of skin, but i sand between sets to keep it from ripping open. I'm about 155 loaded up and am loosing skin in the -20 to zero range. I don't have any skin issues on the other trango grips. I would focus on getting you skin ready before hand (daily sanding) and using lots of chalk. You can also try antihyrdal, but if so, be sure to sand some of your skin off before the workout because it will make you skin texture glassy.

One suggestion someone made before, that I have found extremely helpful is to put a bunch of chalk on you pant legs before each set. Pat you legs at about rep 3 to 4. It is almost impossible to reach into a chalk bag during the 3 second break.

From the book, I would guess less grips is better. When I try adding on more I only do it if I am still progressing on them. As soon as I see my hands are tired and have a bad set, I stop. I find that not all fingers tire out at the same time though. Once I've spent my index or middle though, I cannot progress on the semi closed crimps.




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[tedwelser]

I also have found the trango grips to be very skin friendly. I have not been working the crisp crimp as hard as you have so I have not run into issues with it yet, but I can certainly see how sanding will help once I get to that level. I only ran into problems with skin when I started campusing, and I think some preventative taping will help with that.

Great advice on the chalk, I will do that.

[slimshaky]

i always find this to be a really interesting topic. in the past, my most frustrating 2 grips were a small 3 finger open sloping hold and a 4" pinch. i would always make good gains the first 4 workouts or so, and then flatline (and often regress). i think a lot of this was friction related, but it still always bugged me.

then i had a period where i had the same sort of issue with both of the 2 finger pocket grips (IM, MR). part of this might have been skin pain, when i would start adding too much weight it felt like i was just going to peel the skin off my fingers.

my last 4 cycles have actually been pretty consistent though. the only thing i have really been flatlining on has been the nasty crimp, but a lot of that is due to me being conservative with this grip (and the little punk hurts like a mofo).

i think a big part of it when you are starting out is training your fingers to know how to grip the hold. this sounds overly simple, but it takes a bit of practice to really learn how to latch the hold, and when to hang on as lightly as possible and when to actively try to engage the hold.

another big one that jackalak mentioned is the conditions - temperature and humidity can make a huge difference.

[MarkAnderson]

I think a big factor is the order in which you train the grips. As the phase progresses, the earlier grips become more and more difficult, requiring a greater relative effort. As a result, you approach the later grips with more fatigue than you did earlier in the phase. So while you may be "flatlining" in the sense that the RESISTANCE is the same (or even less), you are performing the sets with much greater fatigue than you did when you started. So the apparent difficulty is still progressing, even though the resistance is not.

Since part of the goal of hangboarding is to create metabolic stress, I hope that this progression in apparent difficulty is sufficient to actually make you stronger in these grips. I think it is to some extent at least, because even after a seemingly shitty HB phase on a given grip, once I start bouldering it feels like I'm stronger in that grip. Also, every phase I seem to have one or two workouts that go bad from the get go. I will fail on many of the early sets, but more often than not I do relatively very well on the later sets. I assume this is because I'm less fatigued than usual at that point in the workout due to my earlier failures.

Bottom line, I think you are getting stronger on these grips, even though it may not look like it on paper. Still, best to train the most important grips early to be sure you are getting the best gains on the most important/fundamental grips.

[Chris W]

That's helpful and a bit encouraging. I've noticed some grips just didn't go well this last strength phase and was a bit bummed. I figured I just started my baseline for the season too heavy (which I still think I did).

[joev9]

Sept 15, 2014 15:15:45 GMT -7 MarkAnderson said:

  Also, every phase I seem to have one or two workouts that go bad from the get go. I will fail on many of the early sets, but more often than not I do relatively very well on the later sets. I assume this is because I'm less fatigued than usual at that point in the workout due to my earlier failures.

So glad to see this post today.  I'm on #7 of 10 planned HB workouts and had a mediocre session today but had a couple surprising good sets near the end.  I think I'm getting near my ceiling on some of the grips and think I will be measuring progress in hitting one more rep, rather than keeping up with the weight increases I have achieved so far.