Hangboard Rep Duration for Bouldering

[Carl0s]

Hello Mike and Mark,
First I want to thank you for writing this amazing book.  It's so easy to understand and simple to follow the training.  
My question is regarding rep duration on the hangboard for someone who boulders almost 100% of the time.     
I started my first session with 7 sec rep and 3 sec rest, but I found it to be not enough rest for me between reps. 
On my 2nd - 6th session I changed it to 5 sec rep and 5 sec rest, and I have been progressing very good this way.

For session 7 and 8th, would you recommend I stay with the 5 sec rep to 5 sec rest set up or should I try to go back to 7 sec rep and 3 sec rest. 
My main goal is to get stronger fingers for bouldering V8/9 and 10 in Bishop and Yosemite.

Thanks,

Carlos
Currently bouldering V6/7 in Southern California (Bishop, Yosemite, Joshua Tree, Black Mountain etc).
Hangboard = Beastmaker 2000 + pulley system and fan
my youtube: channel www.youtube.com/channel/UC4J3701FFG60xrVft6V7Jfw

[MarkAnderson]

Carlos,

It sounds like you're basically following the Max Rexruitment HB workout described on page 148. If it's working for you, stick with it! I've never done it for an entire phase so I'd love to hear how it works out in the long run (if it helps you achieve your goals).

[slimshaky]

good question carl0s, and i am always curious about this. i use a 5 on 5 off 6 reps, primarily for logistical reasons. i have the greasiest hands on earth, so i like to be able to take a dab of chalk between each rep (yep, you just read that correctly - i'm a nightmare walkin, east coast chalkin...). also, i used to use an analog clock so it was easier for me to
stay on track (kind of a lame excuse...). last, i liked it being exactly a 1 minute module each time.

i have thought about switching over to the 7/3/6 arrangement and hanging some chalk balls from the sides of the hangboard to chalk quicker, but it would take a lot of mental re-training

all in all, i think it has worked pretty well. i have solid gains within each cycle, and i usually have some gains from season to season. one thing though, i am very much an endurance person, so hedging towards recruitment has probably been a decent trade off for me.

be sure to keep good records so you can keep everybody posted on how it is going.

[Carl0s]

Hello Mark and fellow Rock Prodigy Climbers,
I drafted a new hang board routine for my next 2 training seasons before the Fall 2015 BOULDERING SEASON and would really appreciate your input and advice.
Don't worry about hurting my feelings if my routine looks nuts.

My theory is to train Hypertrophy > Strength > Strength Endurance in the same workout, as shown below;

(7 reps) 7 sec hangs 3 sec rest at Baseline - 10 (I consider this Strength Endurance for Bouldering)
(6 reps) 6 sec hangs 4 sec rest at Baseline (Hypertrophy)
(5 reps) 5 sec hangs 5 sec rest at Baseline + 20 (Strength / Power)

I tried the ADVANCE HANGBORD ROUTINE but could not for the life of me hang the first set (7 reps) at Baseline from workout to workout.
I boulder 99% of the time, so maybe I have super terrible endurance.

A few questions to go along with the above:

First question.
What set (1, 2 or 3) should I be logging in for my progression chart?

Second Question.
Should I stop over thinking it and just do the Intermediate Hangboard Routine?

Third Question.
If I can't finish the 3rd set of hangs how should I determine my baseline for the following workouts?

Thanks in advance and I'm anxious to see your responses.

Carlos

[jessebruni]

As far as which workout you should do, based on your stated ability in previous posts (climbing several V9's and V8's) I see no reason why you wouldn't be strong enough for the advanced routine in the rock prodigy program. Having very little endurance as a boulderer shouldn't affect your ability TOO much, but the duty cycle is probably higher than you're used to on the first set (7 on 3 off * 7 reps), this really just takes some getting used to.

The main thing I notice is this: Everyone else doing the advanced rock prodigy routine is doing 5 reps of 7 second hangs with 3 second rests at Baseline + 20lbs. You're proposing doing 5 reps of 5 second hangs with 5 seconds rest with the same weight. I'm no scientist, but it sounds to me like the people using the shorter duty cycle (2.33:1 vs 1:1) are going to outpace you quickly. If I were going to do a set with such a low duty cycle I'd be doing much higher weight, since I'm getting so much more rest.

I also don't think it's such a good idea to split each set up into a category (hypertrophy, strength endurance, strength) first because you're really working all 3 of them in all 3 sets anyway, and second because trying to train different elements at the same time is not very ideal. The rock prodigy hangboard workout is considered more of a hypertrophy workout than some others because it deals with a relatively high number or reps with a relatively low rest time (3 minutes between sets). If you were to drop the reps down to 2 or 3 long hangs and long rest between sets (5 minutes) you'd be working more pure strength, and if you were to increase the reps to around 10 and drop the rest between sets to 1:00 or 1:30 then you'd be working more of the strength/endurance end of the spectrum. In any case 1 set at either of these ends of the spectrum really isn't enough IMO to train the adaptation you're looking to create. So personally I would say pick one and stick with it. If you wanna do strength endurance do 3 or 4 sets, lower weight, low rest times. If you want hypertrophy, just do the advanced rock prodigy routine, if you want pure strength, do 4 or 5 sets with 3-4 reps and 5 minutes or so rest between sets at a very high weight.

Having said all that if you have some scientifically backed reasons for why you want to do your workout the way you described above please share them. Maybe I just haven't read enough about this sort of thing and I'm missing something.

[slimshaky]

this next cycle, my workout is going to be set up pretty similar to Carl0s. i have used the 5 on, 5 off, 6 rep format for quite a while. my last cycle i tried switching over to 7x3x5, but i had problems with my skin getting trashed, some tendon strains, melting off holds, and it felt pretty pumpy. i think that using the Carl0s type configuration kind of lets you put more money into the money set, as well as giving a broader spectrum of muscle stimulation.

i think a lot of different folks have different opinions on the optimal duty cycle for strength training, particularly for these muscles/tendons. i think a higher duty cycle might be better for visual hypertrophy, but lower duty cycle might be better for strength. who really knows though, i guess time (and an army of RPT's logging their data!) will tell.

also, carl0s, my guess is that you need a bigger weight difference between sets (ie instead of 10 lbs, make it 15 or maybe even 20 or more).  this is because you are doing 1 rep less AND doing shorter hangs AND taking longer rests.  this all adds up to make a major difference between the amount of weight you can do between the 3 sets.

maybe for the first workout something like baseline -20, baseline, baseline +20.  then you can fine tune it as you go.

[scottec]

I've had similar thoughts/questions regarding the optimal hangboard rep and time sequence for bouldering as I almost exclusively boulder as well.

For my first cycle I followed the max recruitment routine. While I had amazing gains during my first cycle and managed to quickly knock out a pumpy V9 I felt like my strength endurance relative to my strength was sorely lacking.

In other words, I burn out quickly and that has always been a problem for me. In hopes of giving myself a bit more stamina for my second cycle - which I recently completed - I went to a rep range of 6/5/4 as opposed to 5/4/3 for the max hang protocol. I also changed my time ratio from 6secs on/5 secs rest. I kept the 30lb weight differential from the max recruitment routine.

I'll start my send cycle tomorrow (!) and I'll report back my findings/feelings regarding the changes I made for this cycle.

[Lundy]

Super interesting chain that I've also been thinking about lately. My unqualified opinion is the same as Jesse's -- it seems very inefficient to be trying to train all three energy systems in a single workout, much less a single set. As I have been planning for my next cycle, I was thinking instead of doing the standard hypertrophy protocol on the hangboard until hitting the workout #8 (roughly) plateau, then continuing on the hangboard for three or four more workouts, but changing the protocol to max hangs (2-3 reps, 10 seconds on, with one minute rest between each rep is what I've seen in a couple different places) to begin focusing on strength/recruitment and using the PC energy system. I'm hoping this leads to a better power phase. Will certainly be recording and report back, but am curious what folks think about an idea like this...

[joev9]

I'm hoping this is a terminology issue, but all this talk of endurance and stamina doesn't seem to fit in with my understanding of the goal of the strength phase (hangboarding). Maybe Mark can chime in here, but if power endurance or stamina are your weakness, there is a phase to focus on that (after power).

[MarkAnderson]

I don't think it's very effective to try to train endurance, hypertrophy and power within the same workout (nor in the same phase, except in a Maintenance Training situation). It's a "jack of all trades, master of none" situation. I predict the result will be a poor job of training each. Perhaps if you spent the same number of weeks training then simultaneously as you should training them individually (~2-3 months) you might see as good or even better results, but I think it would be tough to stick to the program that long without burning out, plateauing, or hurting your skin (or something worse).

[slimshaky]

i don't really think there is enough difference between the configurations (ie 7x3x7 to 5x5x6) to consider them as being in separate categories/energy systems. i would think they all fall in strength training. if someone was doing something like 25 on 5 off 16 reps, i could see calling it PE. or, if someone was doing 5 on 25 off 4 reps, i could see that as recruitment.

i have only done a 'sort of mixed' phase once.  i was coming off an injury where i was unable to do anything for quite a while and i basically had one month to try to get back in shape before prime season.  it worked pretty well for what it was, but i agree with mark - in the overall game plan it is probably better to keep a single focus.

during my power phase, sometimes after campusing i will do 2 or 3 sets of four finger half crimp on a small rung using 5 secs on, 15 off, 3 reps.  i only do this if i am absolutely certain that my campusing is dying off due to pulling/coordination issues and my fingers still feel really strong.  i put this in bold because you really have to show some restraint here or you will dig your hole too deep.

[jessebruni]

As you said earlier though, even if it's working the same energy system to do 5 on 5 off * 5, the amount of weight needs to be raised to make up for the fact that you get more rest time.

[foreverv3]

Does anyone have any tangible data / results in regards to measurable gains experienced from a shorter HB duty cycle (with heavier weight) versus a longer HB duty cycle (with less weight)? I'm contemplating a transition to a shorter cycle if there is consistent data supporting more efficient gains. So far (with limited data), I've seen the same quantitative gains (+15 to +20 / grip) for season one and nearly the same for season two. However, the holds / grip positions in season two are smaller, more difficult, or both. I'm not sure if gains are linear, as the hold characteristics have substantially changed, and my duty cycle changed from 10s -> 7on & 3off.

[pk]

Jul 1, 2015 23:09:24 GMT -7 foreverv3 said:

Does anyone have any tangible data / results in regards to measurable gains experienced from a shorter HB duty cycle (with heavier weight) versus a longer HB duty cycle (with less weight)? I'm contemplating a transition to a shorter cycle if there is consistent data supporting more efficient gains. So far (with limited data), I've seen the same quantitative gains (+15 to +20 / grip) for season one and nearly the same for season two. However, the holds / grip positions in season two are smaller, more difficult, or both. I'm not sure if gains are linear, as the hold characteristics have substantially changed, and my duty cycle changed from 10s -> 7on & 3off.

I opted to split the difference between the normal program and the max recruitment program by keeping my duty cycle the same (7 on/3 off) but increased resistance and reduced overall TUT (also increased rest between sets from 3 to 4 minutes to reduce carried fatigue).  What this equates to is 3 sets for each grip, with 5 reps for baseline, 4 reps for baseline +15, and 3 reps for baseline +30.  

I'm nearing completion of my first cycle using this protocol and I too have seen gains between +10 and +25 for each grip, although I attribute this more to just switching from a 5RM max to a 3RM max, which allowed me to progress much more quickly through resistance than I could with the original protocol.

One interesting experiment I just did to better quantify these gains was to calculate my 1RM using the Brzyki formula from my previous cycle (Q2) to compare it with this most recent one in a somewhat consistent manner.  The formula I used is:

1RM = (Resistance + Body Weight)/(1.0278 - (0.0278 * Reps Completed))

For this calculation you need your body weight and completed reps, which I luckily happened to track for each session.  Here is a sample of what I found (when subtracting body weight to compare raw gains):

Half Crimp Q2 1RM = +32.5lbs
Half Crimp Q3 1RM = +37.14lbs

IMR Open Q2 1RM = +27.12lbs
IMR Open Q3 1RM = +42.22lbs

So, taking this into account it looks like I was able to increase my calculated 1RM with this cycle from between +5lbs on some of my better trained grips and +15lbs on some that I've traditionally struggled on in the past.

I'd be interested to hear anyone else's thoughts on this.  I plan to stick with this protocol in future cycles as it feels more appropriate for bouldering and I'm looking forward to calculating the changes between cycles.