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Post by rctmdotcom on Apr 27, 2014 16:54:00 GMT -7
"Nic" asked this question through the website:
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Post by Mike Anderson on Apr 27, 2014 16:58:29 GMT -7
Nic, I would highly recommend that you include base fitness training in your program. It is a great way to ensure long-term progression because it provides time to focus on technique, and raising your Maximum Steady State (MSS) is a lifelong pursuit.
In addition, since you like to climb at the New, the routes there are both pumpy, and technical, both characteristics which will benefit fro ARC training.
I don't think rowing is very transferable to climbing, unfortunately. There is no benefit whatsoever to technique, and the physical transfer is questionable. Maybe if you could substitute Rock Rings for the handle grips?
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Post by Chris W on Apr 28, 2014 3:33:46 GMT -7
What kind of terrain are YOU ARCing on? I'm doing a base fitness phase and ARCing for the first time ever and have done 3 ARC sessions now. I'm training to try to send Twinkie at the RRG in the fall. I have at my disposal a dead vertical wall, a 35 degree wall, and a 15 degree wall. I just put a bunch of desperately thin woodscrew Sandstone Chips (e-grips) on the vertical wall to make it harder. It is hard, but I'm not pumping off the wall and my climbing towards the end of the set isn't desperate. I haven't tried to ARC on the 15 degree wall yet but am not sure I could hang on it for 20 minutes.
1) Will ARCing on my vertical wall improve my fitness on pumpy overhanging routes in the red?
2) In the book, you mention most climbers will ARC on vertical to slightly overhanging terrain. What angle do you ARC on?
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ken
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Post by ken on Apr 28, 2014 7:55:35 GMT -7
I recently finished my first training cycle, and while I have noticed definite improvement in strength, power, and overall climbing ability (roughly an 11a to 11c redpoint improvement), I really regret skipping the base fitness phase. Never again. My reasoning was of the sort that is mentioned in the book: it just didn't feel hard enough. I wanted to be too worked to hold a water glass after my workouts, and I figured I could squeeze in ARCing with the other phases.
Being at the second week into an ARCing phase now after reading the book and understanding my error, I feel that I am already improving at some of my key weaknesses: resting efficiently, getting the max utility out of crap feet, and flowing through the moves. Being able to focus on technique while at the same time promoting the sort of physiological benefits that the book describes makes me a little upset with myself for deciding on my own, against the advice of much more experienced climbers, that it was ok for me to skip it the first time around!
Also, on the topic of rowing machines: I used my rowing machine as part of my warmup routine for hangboarding. I'm sure it's not as effective as ARCing on a home wall, but I find that it is pretty easy to hold the handle (concept 2 rower) with both crimp and open-hand grips. I was starting with rowing a few thousand meters with these grips and increasing intensity, then cycling grips on the hangboard. Next time around I think I will try to make the drive back and forth to the gym to warmup, though.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Apr 28, 2014 13:55:58 GMT -7
Chris, I spend about 20% of my ARC time on a vertical wall, about 60% on a 10-degree overhang, and about 20% on a 30-degreee overhang. Practically speaking, I start on the vertical wall, until I'm warm, then travere to the 10-deg wall. I make brief (~5 minute) excursions onto the 30 deg wall, and then work back to the 10-deg wall to recover. When considering specificity, its best to think in terms of hold size (as opposed to wall angle). If I were training specifically for Twinkie, I would try to ARC on Twinkie-sized holds (I don't mean Hostess). If you're already capable of ARCing on Twinkie-sized holds on a Twinkie-angled wall, then you don't need any training! The best compromise is to use Twinkie-sized holds on a less-steep wall (ideally, the steepest angle that you can climb continuously without exceeding your MSS). Also, Twinkie has some tricky vertical climbing at the start, so don't neglect the vertical wall. Even if it didn't, the rest of the world has plenty of tricky vertical climbing as well  |
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Post by Chris W on Apr 28, 2014 20:49:30 GMT -7
Great, thanks for the tips!! I'll try some larger holds on my 15 degree wall and see how it goes. Hopefully I'll get a chance this summer to connect my walls to be able to traverse between them. I'll be sure to continue the vertical ARCing, but I feel much more confident with this type of climbing. I tend to climb well on techy vertical to slabby terrain, while overhanging pumpy routs (like Twinkie) have always been an Achilles heel.
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Post by the7thcity on Apr 29, 2014 5:28:12 GMT -7
Thanks for the reply Mike!
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Post by Mike Anderson on Apr 29, 2014 11:25:12 GMT -7
Great question on wall angle. I currently Arc on a "Tread Wall", so I can control the angle pretty easily. I have preprogrammed "routes" That vary the speed and angle as I climb. I usually start the session on easier programs that range from vertical to 25 degrees, then later in the phase, I'm able to complete thirty minutes on my steepest program, up to 45 degrees. That isn't continuous though...the angle is varying throughout, so it builds up to 45, hovers there for five minutes or so, then goes back down.
Ideally, you have a few angles to choose from, and you move back and forth between the various angles to maintain the right levelof pump just below the MSS.
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Post by Chris W on Apr 30, 2014 16:31:14 GMT -7
So I tried a 20 minute ARC session on my 15 degree wall with some larger holds (edges, a few finger buckets and some jugs). After 10 minutes things started to get desperate, 11 minutes and I was only using the largest of jugs and at the 14 minute mark I pumped off the wall. I ran right to the vertical wall and finished the set (5 second transition time) with screaming forearms. Not sure if I should try this strategy again or not.
1) Is the level of pump the only thing that matters (stimulates desirable adaptations) during the ARC session (for now discounting the aspect of skill training)?
2) Does it matter, as far as fitness goes, if you dial in the pump on an overhanging wall with jugs or a vertical wall with tiny holds?
3) How much does specificity (hold type, angle) matter when in the base phase?
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Post by Mike Anderson on May 1, 2014 8:41:02 GMT -7
Chris, great questions on specificity. They can be answered in a few ways...in terms of physical adaption, skill development, and with a "nobody knows".
I'll start with the easiest...from a skill perspective, you want to utilize terrain that is as specific as possible. That said, if you like vertical routes, you are probably good at them, so you probably have much more to gain by learning and developing on a style that you are less good at. This is essential to long term progress...embracing your weaknesses and overcoming them. Mix in some ARC work on steeper terrain with big holds.
Physiologically, the adaptations you are trying to stimulate (increased capillarity, mitochondrial density and performance) occur in the individual forearm muscles, which are all specific to grip/hold type and size. That said, increased blood pressure in the forearms in general is not specific. So...for purely physiological reasons, try to make your ARC training as specific as possible.
Finally...we don't know. I'm not aware of any scientific research on threshold training that is specific to climbing. It's usually based on running, which is highly repetitive and uses very few muscles, relative to climbing. So, it's not clear from that research if ARCing on jugs would benefit your crimping endurance. Anything I could tell you would be purely anecdotal.
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ken
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Post by ken on May 8, 2014 14:04:54 GMT -7
I'm curious about Chris' question as well regarding pumping off the wall.
Lately, I've been mixing ARC'ing time up between traversing on a vertical bouldering wall working on movement drills and using a treadwall with the aim of gradually increasing the angle at which I can climb indefinitely so that I can one day ARC on the 30 degree overhanging bouldering wall (with the only other wall being 45 degrees overhanging).
Yesterday I climbed at a certain angle on the treadwall and completed what I had prescribed for myself though it became increasingly difficult to hold on, and today I aimed to do the exact same thing (matching the speed of the treadwall as best I could through feel alone) except that I was only able to complete about 65% of the amount done yesterday. My understanding is that this suggests that I was climbing just past the MSS, which would have an adverse effect on ARC'ing gains. Is this correct?
On the other hand, I've heard suggestions (SCC for instance) that if you can't ARC for X minutes, then you should go for as long as you can and then build up to X minutes. That kind of sounds to me like "climb harder than the MSS until it becomes within your MSS".
Should I decrease intensity until I'm back to something that can be sustained indefinitely and then try bumping up intensity again, or should I stick with the current intensity until I can sustain it indefinitely and then increase intensity further? If it matters, I'm doing 3 x 30 minutes sets with 40 out of the 90 minutes planned for treadwall.
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Post by daustin on Jun 9, 2014 13:57:35 GMT -7
Seeing how this thread seems to house general ARC questions, here are a few that have come across my mind as I'm embarking on my first series of ARC workouts:
- If you break up your ARC workout into multiple sets, how long do you rest in between sets?
- How frequently are you resting (as described in the RCTM -- not hands free, but still 'getting something back') vs. continuously climbing? As it is now, I feel like I am doing relatively short boulder problems that are 1-2 V grades below my typical flash level, and punctuating them with rests of 30 s - 1 m
- As I progress in my ARC workouts should I focus on resting less frequently or trying harder moves in between rests? (I know ideally the answer is probably both, but hypothetically if you had to choose one, which would it be? I guess I'm interested more in the theory behind it)
- Like Chris W & Ken, also hoping to clarify how I should be thinking about pump during ARC: from RCTM, I get the impression you should be as pumped as possible, and as you approach the "oh shit I'm so pumped I'll fall within the next 3-5 moves" level you then rest and recover until you can climb back to that same level of pump. Is that the right way of thinking about it, or does that sound like I'm getting TOO pumped? The problem I've run into is that I get to that "oh shit" pump moment in a spot where I can't rest and wind up pumping off trying to get to a rest. In part this is due to poor planning on my part and lack of familiarity with the walls I'm traversing on, but I'm also wondering if I should even be approaching that moment during ARCing or should it be lighter than that?
Thanks in advance for any insights!
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Post by Chris W on Jun 10, 2014 7:22:34 GMT -7
Austin, I'm experimenting with this. My next base phase will be in late July. I've found I can hang on to my vertical wall forever. I put up lots of little screw on jibs and chips, keep my feet on tiny holds and use only small holds for my hands. If I get too pumped I snag a hold just big enough to recover on and then go back at it. On my 15 degree wall, I can't wasn't able to hang on for a full 20 minute set. I would pump right off of even the juggiest holds by about 18 minutes, but would try to hang on to small incurs for 10 moves before hitting something big to shake out on. For my next base phase I'm planning on framing in the space between my 15 and 35 walls to give me an accessible vertical space. I'll put some desperately thin crimps and feet on it and wander to it to rest while keeping a pump before going back to the 15. Not sure if this is the "right" way to do it, but its my plan for now.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jun 12, 2014 18:03:02 GMT -7
- If you break up your ARC workout into multiple sets, how long do you rest in between sets? 5-10 minutes. Your forearms shouldn't really need any rest if the intensity is right. Its more of a mental break, chance to re-hydrate and give your feet a break. - How frequently are you resting (as described in the RCTM -- not hands free, but still 'getting something back') vs. continuously climbing? As it is now, I feel like I am doing relatively short boulder problems that are 1-2 V grades below my typical flash level, and punctuating them with rests of 30 s - 1 m At times you can be resting quite a bit, more than half the time, and mixing in easy boulder problems with longer rests is ok, but you should avoid doing that exclusively. You want to build your ability to recover from more difficult sequences, and what you are doing will certainly help with that. However, you also want to build the ability to perform many moderate consecutive moves WITHOUT rest, so you need to spend some time doing that too. Fortunately there is plenty of time during an ARC workout to mix up the pacing and terrain! - As I progress in my ARC workouts should I focus on resting less frequently or trying harder moves in between rests? (I know ideally the answer is probably both, but hypothetically if you had to choose one, which would it be? I guess I'm interested more in the theory behind it) I would focus primarily on resting less frequently. However, there is ample time to do both, so mix it up if it helps you get through the workout. Theoretically speaking, the idea is to improve capillarity, blood flow, etc, and the best way to do that is to maintain continuous activity, as opposed to oscillating between too hard and too easy. There is certainly a place for that in our training, but generally not during the Base Fitness Phase (PE Phase is the place). - Like Chris W & Ken, also hoping to clarify how I should be thinking about pump during ARC: from RCTM, I get the impression you should be as pumped as possible, and as you approach the "oh shit I'm so pumped I'll fall within the next 3-5 moves" level you then rest and recover until you can climb back to that same level of pump. Is that the right way of thinking about it, or does that sound like I'm getting TOO pumped? The problem I've run into is that I get to that "oh shit" pump moment in a spot where I can't rest and wind up pumping off trying to get to a rest. In part this is due to poor planning on my part and lack of familiarity with the walls I'm traversing on, but I'm also wondering if I should even be approaching that moment during ARCing or should it be lighter than that? It sounds to me like you are too pumped. I get into that zone occasionally, but never intentionally. You should always feel in control. It sounds to me like it feels desperate at times. You can't effectively acquire new skills if that is your mindset. Its ok to throw a few sorta desperate moves or sequences here or there, but you shouldn't be doing it constantly. You should be climbing at a level such that you have some margin to absorb a few difficult moves without it pushing you over the redline, as you would ideally feel during a limit onsight. |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jun 12, 2014 18:04:30 GMT -7
Austin, I'm experimenting with this. My next base phase will be in late July. I've found I can hang on to my vertical wall forever. I put up lots of little screw on jibs and chips, keep my feet on tiny holds and use only small holds for my hands. If I get too pumped I snag a hold just big enough to recover on and then go back at it. On my 15 degree wall, I can't wasn't able to hang on for a full 20 minute set. I would pump right off of even the juggiest holds by about 18 minutes, but would try to hang on to small incurs for 10 moves before hitting something big to shake out on. For my next base phase I'm planning on framing in the space between my 15 and 35 walls to give me an accessible vertical space. I'll put some desperately thin crimps and feet on it and wander to it to rest while keeping a pump before going back to the 15. Not sure if this is the "right" way to do it, but its my plan for now. This sounds acceptable to me. You have to work with the terrain you have to some extent, and this is a good solution for dealing with slightly too hard terrain. |
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