Other options for 'supplemental exercises' for the strength

[Jack Ziegler]

Has anyone experimented with other ways of increasing overall body strength for the 'supplemental exercises' as they are discussed in the strength phase of the book?

As inspired from reading John Gill's biography, I have been reading and trying out gymnastic training on rings and floor to increase core and upper body strength.  The goal of theses exercises is to increase strength with out increasing mass.  The best book on this I have found is "Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength":  eatmoveimprove.myshopify.com/.

I've had lots of past experience in my early 20s lifting weights and done weight training on and off over the years (I'm 30 now and have been climbing since 22), and have actually found that when I start lifting again, most times I climb worse due to increased weight and decreased flexibility and imbalances that developed. 

Right now, once or twice a week I'm training back and front levers, ring dips, muscle ups, L-sit pullups etc.  The goal is to keep the reps low, 1-3 or 3-5 to avoid hypertophy. (I'm currently 5' 8 1/2" and 162 lbs, with low body fat).

Any thoughts on the possibility of this training improving climbing? For someone that's already very strong (but not necessarily with strength to weight maximized) is it better to just later focus on getter lighter in the power phase or continue some kind of strength training (like this) in the strength phase and then stop for the power and power-endurance phase? I'm already doing the hang board training and drastically cutting out my route and bouldering at the gym to keep my fingers healing and ready for the next fingerboard workout. 

[dc]

I found that doing strength exercises for my shoulders and core really helped my climbing performance but that was definitely a weak area for me as opposed to climbing specific finger strength which was relatively good. I'd imagine if your strong and able to do front levers / L pull ups etc already then gains in climbing specific finger strength, power and non specific finger strength e.g. Specific bouldering, fingerboarding and campus boarding would lead to good results. Saying that it's always good to have a wide range of supplemental strength exercises so the routine can be changed when needed i.e. when youve adapted to what your doing change the exercise or add weight / intensity to the current one. In the book the science and practice of strength training it looks at the idea of sports specific strength exercises and transferability: e.g. Will doing push ups make me a better climber? The answer was complex and experiments gave variable results. Overall the specificity and individuality seemed to lead to best results. I.e experimenting with say 10 strength exercises that are as specific as possible to strength needs and finding out which ones seem to work best for you. A good resourse book of exercises like this is gimmekraft which has a full range of climbing specific strength and power exercises.

[dc]

Also about weight gain / hypertrophy, the science of strength training suggests that in relative strength athletes there are two ways to improve strength: hypertrophy or weight loss. Unless your carrying excess body weight in fat etc they suggest that hypertrophy is a good thing to a point and more sustainable but also that some targeted weight loss for short periods can help achieve relative strength gains but this is less sustainable. I read a good article by a uk climber on the subject who used targeted weight loss to achieve climbing 9a.

ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,23709.0.html

[Jack Ziegler]

Thanks for the replies,

I also think my core could be stronger for overhanging climbing.

My shoulders are quite strong, but very imbalanced (from weight lifting, running, climbing, and a 10 year past shoulder injury). Sometimes my shoulder area is so tight that I lose two bouldering grades (V5 to V3)...at which point, I stretch a lot, but it creates a viscous cycle because the over-stretching to get range of motion(ROM) makes you weaker despite greatly increasing your climbing efficiency. So I think the gymnastic training has benefits of increasing ROM while also making you stronger or at least maintaining strength. For the shoulders I do german hangs (this is a stretch), hand stands, non-standard ring dips that are wide and/or turn you wrists to face forward, wall hand stand push-ups, and iron crosses with your feet elevated on a box. I cannot do a full front lever, but do the progressions. I can do a full back lever with bad form.

I also have recurring inner elbow tendonitis and where the bicep meets the shoulder and pectorial muscles, if I climb a lot and stop stretching it flares up. I'm guessing this is probably related to muscle imbalances, and am hoping that the gymnastic exercises I do with locked elbows will help this.

My climbing ability is likely limited by finger-strength and shoulder imbalance/inflexibility. I can campus up and down on jugs easily, but generally suck at the campus board.

I'm still not sure how to best optimize strength to weight ratio in a climbing specific way (other than finger strength), but I'm planning on cycling in a diet after I finish my last fingerboard workout and enter the power phase.

[dc]

Climbing on rock / bouldering and crimpy indoor bouldering took me from v3 to v9 in a year or two. As long as your resting well between sessions the rest of the extra strength work might make you worse at climbing at that level. Just a thought but simply going climbing and resting well works pretty well up to a point.

[Michael Hall]

If you can campus on jugs easily but suck on a campus board, seems like fingers are more likely your weakness than larger muscle group pull strength. I have worked body-weight exercises over the years and found them helpful for improving imbalances in my strength. That said, I also found them to wear me out and impact the quality of my climbing workouts, even seeming to flare up overuse injuries in my elbows and shoulders at times, so I use them more sparingly now; levers are a go-to core workout for me. I have found these progressions helpful over the years: www.beastskills.com/ - MAH

[BigBoy]

Hypertrophy in weight training starts with Time Under Tension (TUT). Usually you will see sets and reps of 5x5 3,4,5x8,10,12,15+ or your typical body builder routine. With your gymnastics routines just look at the gymnastic guys. Their muscles are huge, but also they are strong in those motions.



For strength, but less hypertrophy you want less TUT. Sets and reps are a little different then mentioned in the book (for power. I have to define power. p=w/t there is no way to describe it otherwise. A Dyno is a power movement. There is no such thins as power endurance (I know, this is my one problem with the book). Sets and reps. For athletes you want to move fast with all concentric movements (even if it is heavy and more of a grind). Sets will be usually higher like 4-10 sets, but as you get up in the amount of sets your reps drop off considerably. 4 sets of 5 reps, 5-8 sets of 3 reps, 6-8 sets of 2 reps, and 10 sets of 1 rep (more maxing out here). Does that make sense.



Now we will talk about progressive overload. With these sets and reps for strength you want to start with an easy first set and add weight each and every set. The last set should be (depending on the reps) closer to your max. With this type of lifting you will see large strength gains and minimal hypertrophy. Will there be some hypertrophy, the answer is yes. But, it will be less because the TUT is minimal. Does that make sense.



I am currently experimenting with climbers. These guys are beginner climbers that have excess weight (fat) that they first need to get off of them. Diet is 80% of the equation. The 20% part of the equation is working out. I am currently running them through circuits with kettlebells, to increase their work capacity and burn calories. On top of working out they climb. I have just recently received this book and haven't had a lot of time to read all the way through it. I like the parts about hangboards, campus boards, and the systematic approach to getting better at climbing.



I am experimenting with kettlebells because with climbing you are in an anaerobic state, but your forearms are doing anaerobic movements. This challenges the forearms, I believe kettlebell training for the work capacity stage of training will aid my climbers in the future.



hopefully that made sense

BBC