Significant change in performance when changing grip order

[jetjackson]

So about 5 weeks ago I finished up a micro-cycle where I hit +20kg on the forge edge at the second bump with an open crimp.

My grip order at the time;

Forge edge - 1st bump index
Thin crimp - full crimp
IM 2 Finger pocket
Half Crimp on Lattice edge - 20mm rounded
Med Pinch Forge

On the Half crimp when it was in that order I maxed out at +10kg.

I then changed it up for this cycle

Half Crimp on Lattice edge - 20mm rounded
Forge edge - 1st bump index
Thin crimp - full crimp
IM 2 Finger pocket
Med Pinch Forge

Now I'm just at +5kg on the half crimp, then today was max +10 on the forge full crimp, then I can't even get 4 reps of the Open crimp at -2.5kg!

Perhaps it's just too similar of a grip all in a row at the start. I could try moving the 2F pocket up and see if that helps. Just very surprised at the performance drop off.

[Charlie S]

Interesting to see the drop off be that pronounced. It sounds like your first order perhaps allows a better "warmup" (even if you are already warmed up) into the session. It could also have just been an off day (I've had a number of those). Maybe see if the trend continues on your next workout and make an assessment then?

The Forge VDER index at first bump is substantially smaller than 20mm (I think you're probably hovering around 13mm). I do find the half-crimp position to be much harder than open handed.

There's a wrist position factor involved with both, too. The Forge puts your wrist into a more neutral position and allows the pinky to be more involved. The Lattice rung is going to slightly force you out of this angle.

Finally, if you were going to tweak the order, I'd probably put the pinch up there to break up the order. The 2F pocket is exhausting.

[jetjackson]

Not an off day - it was the third hangboard session with the same issue, figure 3 times is a trend. I've measures it at 14mm where the index finger is sitting. It's the same position where I was getting +20kg only 5 weeks ago on my 3rd set of 5 reps.

I'm going to try going back to the previous grip order, and see what happens. Will post.

I've bought into this idea that the half-crimp needs training in addition to open crimp and full crimp due to the strength required on the join angle when moving up and off holds. I feel that my open crimp strength is at the point where I need to start investing in other grips. I've progressed my open crimp from the LVDER to the SVDER to the first bump on the SVDER. Each time I get to about +32.5kg added, or plus 70 pounds, where I have reduced hold size. The first bump on the SVDER is about the limit of which I want to drop off on hold size. My 2 finger pockets are poor and I'm not at bodyweight on either. I always go back to Mark's figures from I think it was 2010ish, where his 2 finger pockets are outrageous and higher than what he is getting on the thin crimp, comparatively my strength is the other way around on grips. Given I'd like to climb hard out climbs at Smith Rock one day, I think I need to start investing in pockets for the long term also. However, I don't want to prioritise these other grips if it leads to a significant loss on the open hand crimp, which I would see as one of my most important grips. I'm happy to just maintain on that grip, but wouldn't want it to go significantly backwards.

[Charlie S]

Interesting. Let us know how it goes!

I've switched to 1-arms. I got tired of adding all the extra weight and straining my shoulders in ways I felt was non-specific. It also allowed me to stay on slightly larger holds. Once holds get below 10mm, things become extremely condition dependent for me. A 15%-20% humidity day is going to be WAY better than a 50% day. Whereas a 5%-10% day (we get a number of these) is going to feel super glassy.

[MarkAnderson]

Apr 15, 2020 17:24:28 GMT -7 jetjackson said:

My 2 finger pockets are poor and I'm not at bodyweight on either. I always go back to Mark's figures from I think it was 2010ish, where his 2 finger pockets are outrageous and higher than what he is getting on the thin crimp, comparatively my strength is the other way around on grips.

Keep in mind you have no idea what size 2f pocket i was using (that makes two of us). If it’s data from 2010, that’s 3 years before the RPTC existed, so it’s definitely not any of the 2fs from that. Probably from the Franklin Power Station, which I believe is really deep. Might be better to look at data from whatever hangboard you are using now (Forge?)

[jetjackson]

I'm basing on the following information. Keeping in mind that in doing this I'm trying to assess my finger strength relative to yours, to understand where I'm sitting to help inform decisions about my training. Trying to answer the questions - what grips do I prioritise now? which grips am I relatively weak on? which grips do I need to invest in now, for climbs I want to do 3-5 years from now at the Frankejura and Smith. 

It would be great to understand what weight you are currently adding to your current bodyweight, to what grips. Are you still seeing strength gains almost a decade on from season to season? From memory you have noted that you're lucky to add 5 pounds to a grip in a year now.

It does look like your pockets dropped off into 2013, suggesting that the 2011 pockets were much larger. Still, the relative strength vs your thin crimp is higher.

I'm hanging +33 pounds on the Forge thin crimp using the thumb catch, no shim. I'm maxing out at bodyweight on the MR Deep on the Forge for IM (I don't use the indicated IM for IM, not a fan of the way the finger bumps make it feel). I'm maxing out at +20kg on the Forge VDER with index finger at first bump. For the past 2 years I've pretty much relegated pockets to the grips at the end of my sets and I've prioritised open crimp and full crimp.

[MarkAnderson]

Check your gmail, which is hopefully still good.

[jetjackson]

Thanks Mark, info helped guide me.

Today I had another session, I switched the open crimp to the start, and pushed the half crimp to the 3rd grip. When I went and had a look at Mark's descriptions looks more like what he is referring to as a semi-closed crimp on some of the threads here. MR is a bit more bent at both PIP and DIP joints, while index is relatively straight with a slight bend at the DIP and straight at the PIP.

So previous session I went;

Jug Warm up - 7 +5kg, 6 +10kg
Half-Crimp (90 degree bend at DIP on IMR, straight PIPs. ; +5kg on 3rd set.
Full Crimp on Forge with Thumb catch ; +10kg on 3rd set.
Open Crimp (SCC as per above) ; -2.5kg fail on 4th rep in 1st set.

This session I went;

Skipped jug warm-up
Open Crimp (SCC) ; +12.5kg
Full Crimp ; +12.5kg
Half-Crimp ; +7.5kg (4.5 reps on third set)

The jug warm up was a legacy from when I only had the hangboard and tbh, I probably have no issues ditching this as able to warm-up really well on the home woody now.

As you can see, re-arranging them I was able to perform better across all three grips.

So I'm going to go back to keeping half-crimp at the third grip for now and keep the warm-up grip out.

Really not sure as to what might be the underlying factor that caused this.

[ryalbert]

How much rest do you take in between sets/grips ?

I've noticed that increasing my rest from 3 to 4 minutes decreased noticeably the impact of a specific grip sequence, at first it was a great challenge for me to mix grips all relying on my middle finger.

(Now this is a partially uninformed opinion) By doing so I was a bit uncomfortable to move away from the bodybuilding classical routine (they even promote 2 minutes rest I believe) which tends to add metabolic stress but from what I have read/heard,  this mostly adds "non-functionnal hypertophy" if I am not mistaken. So as long as you make progress I guess it's not too bad.

Apr 15, 2020 19:20:36 GMT -7 jetjackson said:

I'm basing on the following information. Keeping in mind that in doing this I'm trying to assess my finger strength relative to yours, to understand where I'm sitting to help inform decisions about my training. Trying to answer the questions - what grips do I prioritise now? which grips am I relatively weak on? which grips do I need to invest in now, for climbs I want to do 3-5 years from now at the Frankejura and Smith. 

(...)

Also, at what age did you start climbing in 1991 ? I (re)started climbing relatively late for my current ambitions and I am always looking for people with long track records to make me feel better about my progression potential (:
(Edit: I am now realizing this may actually not be your plot)

[jetjackson]

That is Mark's best redpoint over time chart, not mine FWIW.

The rearranging of the grips has worked, I hit a new PB on the closed forge crimp last night.

Classic bodybuilding routine from when I was trying to bulk up in my early 20s, was 3 reps of 12, 3 minutes rest. Later when I was training for strength with power-lifting it was 3x5 or 5x5. To me the RP approach to repeaters is very much focused on strength reps.

I've heard people say that Andersen repeaters are 'power endurance' training. I just got my Lattice test scores back - I tested at the end of a hangboard cycle, with little PE under my belt for that season and I scored very high on finger strength, and very low on endurance and power endurance. Would be one piece of evidence to indicate to me that the RP hangboard method definitely targets strength. I mean the other big indicator for me though is that my finger strength is just continually gaining over the years, and friends of mine who ditched the RP hangboard method have comparatively weaker fingers than me now. At the end of the day, climbing is a sport that rewards consistency in application over many years. Too many people change protocols every 6 months because they didn't go from climbing V6 to V10 in one cycle like some other person they saw on instagram. 

[MarkAnderson]

Apr 21, 2020 15:18:20 GMT -7 jetjackson said:

...climbing is a sport that rewards consistency in application over many years. Too many people change protocols every 6 months because they didn't go from climbing V6 to V10 in one cycle... 

Amen brother!🤘

[hangboarderjon]

Science -- it works!