The RPTM is not working for me. What to do?

[buoux4eva]

I am sorry to have to post this as I was hoping to eventually add my story of success to the Psych page but it appears the RPTM is not giving me any real results.  The question is do you persevere or do you try something completely different? 

Without going into heavy detail now, this is the scenario in a nutshell:  I am an experienced climber(25+ years, predominantly sport climbing) and have made it to a reasonably high level(5.14a 5 or 6 times, hundreds of 5.13) over this time without structured training.  After many injuries and plateaus I was really psyched to come across the Anderson bros and their awesome work on climbing improvement.  The scientific, structured approach really appealed to me as an engineer(it still does but there are always exceptions to rules!) Anyway, I have completed 6 training cycles(5 consecutive) very closely following the program laid out in the RCTM.  The result is that there is no improvement in my redpoint ability(trying and not suceeding on multiple 13d routes, different styles) and no significant objective gains in strength or endurance.  I am frustrated as to why this is happening as I feel I am training hard and consistantly(in fact I have never trained harder or more seriously in my life) but either I must be doing something wrong or this program is not for me. 

So, over to you.  What's the advice ? They say nobody really wants advice but confirmation... I'm open to anything!

[Charlie S]

I went through a similar phase after training really hard after ankle surgery (lots of time on a hangboard!). Turns out it took a few extra weeks for the training to turn "on" and I succeeded in sending my first 5.13a.

In your case, I think you need to step back and determine what your limitation(s) is/are. For instance, if you have great finger strength, perhaps hangboarding harder isn't going to help you. Or maybe you have a ton of power; in that case, training power isn't likely to yield many results.

You're on the pretty far end of the performance spectrum. Things that are going to make you improve will be subtle. There's an adage: train your weaknesses, climb your strengths.

There's also the possibility that you overtrained. I've done this before, and it can be aggravating to feel performance slip despite hard work. Training is as much an art as it is a science. The RCTM is an excellent framework for a training program. You will need to tweak it to fit your needs (and that's the intention of it, anyway).

[jetjackson]

Can you share a bit more data your training results over the past two years?

What do your ARC sessions look like?

What does your power performance and a typical session look like on the campus board?

What grips/weights have you been doing on the hangboard and have you seen any increase in resistance on those workouts?

Have you seen no gains in your performance in training over two years?

Also, ca you clarify - you mention trying 5.13d's at the moment, but then you said you have also climbed 5 to 6 x 5.14a's?

[buoux4eva]

Aug 4, 2019 12:11:33 GMT -7 Charlie S said:

I went through a similar phase after training really hard after ankle surgery (lots of time on a hangboard!). Turns out it took a few extra weeks for the training to turn "on" and I succeeded in sending my first 5.13a.

In your case, I think you need to step back and determine what your limitation(s) is/are. For instance, if you have great finger strength, perhaps hangboarding harder isn't going to help you. Or maybe you have a ton of power; in that case, training power isn't likely to yield many results.

You're on the pretty far end of the performance spectrum. Things that are going to make you improve will be subtle. There's an adage: train your weaknesses, climb your strengths.

There's also the possibility that you overtrained. I've done this before, and it can be aggravating to feel performance slip despite hard work. Training is as much an art as it is a science. The RCTM is an excellent framework for a training program. You will need to tweak it to fit your needs (and that's the intention of it, anyway).

Thanks Charlie. I understand what you are saying and I think I have tried to address these issues as I have implemented the program.  I have already made lots tweaks to the program as I have worked through the cycles that I have done but I find that I have had problems trying to get almost every phase of the program to work (except the rest phase!) They seem to work well in theory(and I guess they work for plenty of others here) but in practice I can't get them to work. Perhaps I should have asked on the forum earlier than now about the problems but I really wanted to work through and see if I could solve these myself.
My limitations are definitely in strength and power and I work on these a lot.  As far as overtraining goes, I don't know.  My understanding of the program as a linear periodization approach should avoid overtraining as each of the phases is not longer than 4 weeks. So this change in stimulus should prevent overtraining.  I am wrong in this?  I do know that I feel really fatigued all through the strength phase but during power and performance I feel pretty good.  

[buoux4eva]

Aug 4, 2019 23:47:48 GMT -7 jetjackson said:

Can you share a bit more data your training results over the past two years?

What do your ARC sessions look like?

What does your power performance and a typical session look like on the campus board?

What grips/weights have you been doing on the hangboard and have you seen any increase in resistance on those workouts?

Have you seen no gains in your performance in training over two years?

Also, ca you clarify - you mention trying 5.13d's at the moment, but then you said you have also climbed 5 to 6 x 5.14a's?

Sure, but there is plenty of it to wade through so I won't put too much in any one reply.

Initially my ARC sessions were exactly as specified in the book, so for several seasons I did a 2 week basic phase with indoor ARCing first 3x20mins then 3x30mins at the end of the phase. Later seasons I have swapped this for more outdoor laps as I really felt a lack of rock time by the time the performance phase came around.  I actually find this to be quite a problem with the program in general.  Months are spent climbing/training indoors and when I come to perform i find days of valuable climbing are used adjusting to to this.

For the power and campus sessions, again this is as per the book.  I started with the intermediate limit boulder program and campus for the first few seasons and then moved to the advanced limit boulder program but have stayed with the intermediate campus program(no double dynos)  Power and strength are definitely my weakness so I work a lot on this.  I do get progress on my limit boulders and campus laddering across the phase but this seems to disappear quickly when doing more rock climbing in the performance phase.

The hangboard phase has been really problematic.  I started doing the intermediate routine then switched to the advanced one for 5 seasons. There were some initial gains but since then just really stagnant or even going backwards in some cases. I have changed the grips a little over time but generally: half crimp, mono, full crimp, two finger, half pad open, narrow or wide pinch.  

Yes, I have seen moderate gains in training performance over the last two years but without results in climbing ability.  As the motivation to train comes from the expected reward of climbing performance I am questioning the time investment of continuing like this.

Ok, so what I meant about the climbing grades was just for context.  My maximum climbing grade I have climbed is 14a, I've done 6 or so of these over the years.  First one 23 years ago, the last one 4 years ago. I've had problems with injuries a lot and so my level goes up and down as I recover and then try to get back up again. So I discoved the RPTM about 2 years ago and thought this is great- the promise of fewer injuries and higher performance had me sold! I have been trying to get back to my peak over the last 2 years, hence 13d is probably my limit at the moment.  I have actually climbed lots of routes up to 13c(I climbed this level after the first season of RPTM) during this time.  This might sound like the program is really working despite my complaints but the way I see it is if this is an effective program than getting back to my former level should be a good test of it.  

 
 

[jetjackson]

It sounds like a complex situation and we would really need to dive into each component of your training to understand where and why it may not be working for you.

As for injury prevention, I think that the hangboarding really aids in preventing finger injuries, but I'm not sure how well it really prevents other forms of injury.

Have you got the data somewhere on your progress on the hangboard?

[MarkAnderson]

Are you still climbing at Buoux? That could be the problem --those routes seem to get harder and harder every year, haha.

Sorry to hear it isn't working out. I have some theories.

You mention 25+ years of climbing, how old are you? At my age (42) it feels like a real achievement any season I get back to my best, and I have to really optimize my training to do so, which I often fail to do. Actually improving on my best is another thing entirely and has been quite rare for me over the last two years or so. So, maybe for you getting back to your best is a bit harder than it used to be.

Another possibility is that all the time away from rock just doesn't work for you. Lots of climbers, including many of the best ones, really need regular mileage on rock to maintain whatever it is that makes them tick. If that sounds like you, I recommend tailoring your plan to include regular outdoor days. Maybe something similar to the Big Wall STP but with higher intensity outdoor climbing.

I doubt ARCing is helping you, so I'd cut that out unless you're training for Maple, etc.

Next, overtaining is not so simple. This is another thing that changes with age. You can tolerate less volume and often need more rest. If you are in your 40s and following the Advanced plan strictly, there's a good chance you're overtrained, which will completely kill your top end power.

Finally, do you weigh yourself, and did you before you started training? Any change? If your eating habits are based on 3+ days\week of outdoor climbing, and then you swap those days for deadhanging, etc without dietary changes, you're going to gain weight.

Hope this helps!

[buoux4eva]

Aug 5, 2019 17:06:48 GMT -7 jetjackson said:

Have you got the data somewhere on your progress on the hangboard?

Hey Jet, thanks for taking the time to help me with this.  I have put my hangboard data below but I would like to say first that I think it's not so helpful to get bogged down in the minutiae too much.  Although finger strength is a critical part of the program, it is still only part of it and the synergistic combining of the phases is what gives the performance peak IMO.  I remember Mark wrote on the forum a while back that said something like the point of hangboarding was not to make you stronger but to make you a better climber. So I am not sure how useful it is to look at my data, although it does look pretty crap and nothing like the Excel plots of soaring finger strength in the manual.

Ok, so the grips are listed below and the data runs in chronological order from when I first started the program.  The figure is the final weight(+/- BW) used on the 2nd or 3rd set of the last hangboard session in kg.  Mostly 10 sessions per phase, 2 sets for for first 2 phases and 3 sets for the last 5 phases.  The second phase was only 6 sessions when I aborted with an injury. Where there is a gap is where I lost a grip for a season due to injury or didn't use that grip.

• Half Crimp +15 / +2.5 / +7.5 / +10 /--/ +7.5 / +7.5
• MR +6.25 / 0 / +7.5 / +7.5 / +12.5 / +15 -change to smaller- 0 / -2.5
• Crimp +10 / 0 / +7.5 / +7.5 /--/ +2.5 / +5
• Mono --/--/ -5 / -2.5 / 0 / 0 / -12.5 -no idea what happened here!
• Open(half joint, sloping) +17.5 / 0 / +2.5 / +2.5 / +15 / +10 / +2.5
• Pinch -5 / -7.5 / -7.5 / -10 /--/ -15 / -15

[buoux4eva]

Hi Mark, thanks for the reply. Yes, I am still climbing at Buoux actually! It's one of my favourite areas in the world and I go for a week every winter. The pleasure of climbing in the sun at the Bout du Monde, surrounded by the ghosts of the history of sport climbing, is sublime. Some of my life climbing goals are there, like Agincourt and Le Minimum. The grades are indeed tough there, not a kneebar in sight!

So, yep I'm not that young any more but I actually don't feel it is really significant. I'm 47, which I know sounds old but I am fit and healthly, I feel good, I have the same body composition as when I was 21, my work is part-time and non-stressful, I'm happily married, no kids. So I have everything going for me in trying to climb my best but I hear you, it's not as easy as when you are young. I do feel the window is closing for me to reach some lifetime peak, I'm pretty sure no-one will be climbing 9a at 60+.

Yes, I do feel the lack of rock climbing in the program and have felt intuitively over time that I need to modify this so thanks for confirming that. I do really need time on the rock but I was absolutely prepared to sacrifice that if the end result was increased performance.

Ok, the overtraining sounds serious. I am aware of it conceptually and have thought that I was alert to it happening but I will have to take a good look at it now. One of my main worries with taking more than the programmed rest is that it would put you out of sync within the phases of the macro cycle. For example, if you take more rest during the strength phase then this will take more than 4 weeks and will eat into the time needed for the power phase and so on if you take more rest during the power phase etc. My feeling has been that I was mostly ok, generally I would spontaeously take more rest here or there if I was not feeling good. An objective test of overtraining would be good to know. I have read about using resting heartrate after waking as a good metric to analyse this. I've just finished another strength phase so I think I will monitor my waking heartrate for the next few months as see what happens.

[Lundy]

The biggest change I had to make to the RPTM (I'm 44, climbing mid-13s) is more rest, as you and Mark are both noting.  The key for me is not to let the extra rest eat into future phases, instead it's to lengthen the overall cycle.  My specific approach is to add a MAJOR deload week every fourth week.  So I do three very hard weeks, then do a week of both low volume (about half the workouts) and low intensity.  This change made a huge difference for me.  But it also means my cycle starts farther out from my target performance period, in order to fit those extra weeks of rest in without compromising the gains from doing a full strength/power/endurance cycle.

[buoux4eva]

Hi Lundy, thanks, that's good to know. I have been doing a lot more reading about overtraining since Charlie and Mark highlighted it as an issue and it could be a problem for me. Apparently, it is quite hard to get an objective measure of overtraining and there is probably quite a fine line between pushing yourself right to the edge in training and overdoing it. For me, I felt like for many years I didn't give enough effort when training/climbing got really challenging and so now, perhaps stupidly, I want to make up for it buy giving it full gas, nothing held back. Obviously that strategy needs looking at again! Here is a good paper I found on overtraining for those interested. It comes from an endurance sport perspective but systemically it probably still applies: philmaffetone.com/the-overtraining-syndrome/

I have also though about extending the cycle lengths, as you mention, and this means the macro cycle is also extended. I always thought doing this changes the fundemental programming of the rock prodigy method. So if you do this does that mean only two performance phases a year?

[Lundy]

Yup - two performance phases a year for me, though you can squeeze in a shorter third one, depending on how you schedule.

An important note, though, is I don't think it's a matter of pushing too hard in any single workout. I absolutely throttle myself in my workouts, but if I try to do that for too many weeks in a row, I stop recovering effectively, and end up digging a hole that takes a long time to get out of, not to mention I get a lot more niggling injuries. So I proactively take every fourth week "off". I don't usually feel like I need it by then, but I do it anyway to proactively manage my ability to go all out when I am training.

[jetjackson]

Aug 14, 2019 1:49:54 GMT -7 buoux4eva said:

 Apparently, it is quite hard to get an objective measure of overtraining and there is probably quite a fine line between pushing yourself right to the edge in training and overdoing it. 

I think that a Resting Heart Rate measure could be a good potential indicator.

I recall there being a post in the sub about it. You can get a smart watch that will measure it, as well as sleep quality, that could be helpful with diagnosing any issue in that respect. 

[MarkAnderson]

FWIW, I don’t do any deload weeks. I’ve never tried it (maybe it would help me?). Instead I throw in extra rest days here and there, pretty much based on feel and experience. That seems to work well enough, and now I’m pretty good at predicting when I will need extra rest days, so I can build them into my schedule in advance. For my upcoming Fall cycle I have 3 extra days built in between my Strength and early Power phases.

As an example, I just got back from a 2 week trip in which I did the best road trip climbing I’ve done in a decade, and I attribute it to preemptively adding extra rest days (and having the discipline to forego the “one last route” at the end of each day).