Supercharged Collagen

[jtcragger]

Eric Horst's company, PhysiVantage, sells a product called Supercharged Collagen. Some rather strong claims are made in regard to its beneficial effects for tendons and pulleys. Has anyone here had any personal experience with this or heard of any research by an unconnected third party?

[Charlie S]

I've been experimenting with it for a few months.

First off, I haven't experienced any bad side-effects, so it definitely doesn't hurt.

Regarding the research, he links to several papers which were completed before he started his company. These are lab tests, so I doubt you'll find anyone specifically performing research with his product.

Ok, so now the story:
I've had a number of tendon issues (elbows, fingers, pulleys, ankles, etc.) I decided to give this a whirl.
4/10/2019-5/6/2019: I took it per the recommended dosage during a 1 month hangboard season (every morning with coffee, and 30-60 minutes before a hangboard session mixed in with BCAAs).
5/17/2019: On my first campus workout, I felt the A4 in my ring finger get cranky. It's been cranky before. Slightly defeated, I stopped the session.

Now, I realize that tendons can take longer to respond. But I also recognize the collagen stuff isn't cheap. I went off of it for a few weeks and just relied on tape and proprioceptive feedback. At this point, PhysiVantage offered a 4-pack for 25% off. A sucker for deals, I bought the 4-pack and figured I would try again with a modified dosage protocol.

My new protocol has been: 1 scoop in my coffee on climbing/climbing training days, and 1 scoop in my BCAAs 30-60 minutes before a climbing workout. Days off I don't use it.
Corollary: heavy benching [for me] has made some odd corners of my elbows hurt. I would mix it in with my BCAAs on my Olympic lifting days as well.

So now we're a few months in, I'm hangboarding again, still benching, and I'm feeling ok. Unlike muscles, you're not going to feel like you're a beast with strong tendons. You don't know you have a problem until it's too late...

At this point, I'm 3 containers into this experiment. I'll let you know the verdict after this next power season in a month or two. I think 4-6 months is probably a more appropriate time frame for an experiment with connective tissue.

[jtcragger]

Thanks Charlie, that's interesting and helpful info.

I read through the info on the Physivantage website again. The protective finger training protocol sounds like something I could benefit from. I don't have any major injuries but also worry about chronic "cranky" joints here and there, and I'm suffering from a serious (probably terminal) case of old age.  I think I'll give this stuff a try and see what it does for me. 

I'll be interested to hear your conclusions after using this for some more time.

[Charlie S]

The verdict: indeterminate.

I exploded off of an edge during a strength assessment almost 4 weeks ago. My A2 has been severely cranky since, markedly inhibiting any power workouts and ruling out the 2nd hold on my project for the short term. I’ve been trying a high intensity low volume recovery plan and have been equally as flustered with the recovery pace.

It’s a bit like proving a negative. Could it have been worse? Could I have been healing more slowly?

I’m going to take the next whole week off. I can feel a physical and mental hole being established.

Try for yourself and let us know what you find. As part of this continued experiment, I am going to stop when I run out and see if there is any noticeable difference.

[sbleazard]

Speaking of collagen, would you probably get what you need from eating lunch (something with chicken or tuna) and then eating an orange before a training session?

[sbleazard]

Speaking of collagen, would you probably get what you need from eating lunch (something with chicken or tuna) and then eating an orange before a training session?

[Charlie S]

Well, another check in here.

I had been off of it for a few months. As training progressed harder with my modified plan (about 3 climbing days a week: one a heavy limit boulder session, one a one-armed hangboard, and the last an actual day of climbing), another A4 was getting sore (I have had more issues with A4 instead of A2; I almost wonder if it's a flexor tendon connection instead of a pulley).

Anyway, between using the collagen as instructed (in morning coffee and again before a training session), the issues have begun to dissipate. I think the collagen may have helped, given that the training pattern and intensity hadn't changed over the past few months.

sbleazard, Horst had a podcast talking about where you can get collagen from food intake. It seems like pork is the winner. So I'm sure you could, but I'd personally have a hard time training on a BBQ sandwich and orange right before. I prefer to train 2-4 hours after eating with a light 50-100cal snack 30 minutes before.

[jetjackson]

With this whole Covid-19, I've been doing a whole lot more cooking - and instagramming about it as you know Charlie

I made some chicken stock the other night in a slow cooker. Apparently you get heaps of collagen from the bones if you slow cook it forever.

I read through some r/climbharder posts on collagen and decided that it's not conclusive enough to spend money on it. I don't trust Eric Horst or pretty much anyone that hocks supplements.

[hangboarderjon]

Feb 27, 2020 7:28:46 GMT -7 Charlie S said:

Well, another check in here.

I had been off of it for a few months. As training progressed harder with my modified plan (about 3 climbing days a week: one a heavy limit boulder session, one a one-armed hangboard, and the last an actual day of climbing), another A4 was getting sore (I have had more issues with A4 instead of A2; I almost wonder if it's a flexor tendon connection instead of a pulley).

Anyway, between using the collagen as instructed (in morning coffee and again before a training session), the issues have begun to dissipate. I think the collagen may have helped, given that the training pattern and intensity hadn't changed over the past few months.

sbleazard , Horst had a podcast talking about where you can get collagen from food intake. It seems like pork is the winner. So I'm sure you could, but I'd personally have a hard time training on a BBQ sandwich and orange right before. I prefer to train 2-4 hours after eating with a light 50-100cal snack 30 minutes before.

I've been trading off between eating pre-made bone broths and using collagen protein powder in smoothies. The pre-made bone broths are available at health food stores for about $5 a serving, and saves the time and mess of making a broth at home.

My unscientific, poorly documented experiment shows that I feel better and have less injuries (running or climbing) while taking these.

Since starting hangboard training back when Covid hit in March, I've had almost no finger soreness, even though I've made huge increases in hangboard performance. Whenever I feel a bit tweaky on a hold or weight, it always goes away after one or two sessions. I haven't had any joint swelling in my fingers.

This could be solely a result of training carefully.

BTW Charlie, you're training at a really high intensity, with very little rest. I'd be surprised if you don't get injured!

[Charlie S]

Sept 28, 2020 12:39:33 GMT -7 hangboarderjon said:

BTW Charlie, you're training at a really high intensity, with very little rest. I'd be surprised if you don't get injured!

Intensity is king! I've turned the volume way down. Definitely gotten a little smarter since the last time I wrote anything on here. Really changing up a lot of things right now to try and find that sweet spot. Many years of the Rock Prodigy program have offered a lot of insight into how training works.

[hangboarderjon]

From what Mark and Mike describe in the book, it sounds like they learned most of this knowledge the hard way. One particular story from Mike in the injury prevention section recounts a pulley injury that took about 6 months to a year to recover from. He says he had mild pain in that finger that had been building up for a while before the injury occurred -- which is probably a result of overtraining, or not recovering sufficiently while working a project.

I think it's helpful, when forcing yourself to hold back from straying from the program, to envision yourself training and improving for years without injuries. When looked at from this long-term perspective, it becomes easier to let go of the desire to push past injury-inducing pain.

As I type this, my middle fingers are still sore from my first few power workouts this week. My excitement over the newly opened gyms is getting the best of me, so I'm going to tone it down a bit at my next workout.