Book Club -- The Push

[MarkAnderson]

Absolutely. That’s like asking if I think training makes people better at rock climbing.

I’m not saying he could outclimb Chris now, too many years out of the game, but at that time they were climbing the same grades, Chris was just climbing them faster. So maybe he was half a letter grade behind. That’s nothing for someone who is totally untrained. Jonathan went from 14d to 15a after six months of training, in his late 20s. Then another letter grade, on a route that’s totally his anti-style (Jumbo Love), in a couple more years.

I’m not saying that would’ve been better than the path he chose, but it would’ve been possible. I actually think history will regard Tommy above Chris (maybe the present does as well?), considering the scale of his accomplishments and how he impacted the sport.

[Chris W]

Today I finished reading section two. What a crushing story! I had no idea. I remember watching the Dosage movies with Tommy and Beth climbing, and it makes me sad to learn that both of them were suffering so much.

It's remarkable that Tommy climbed so well with so much emotional pain weighing on him. Granted, it is HIS book, but he seems to have truly and sincerely loved Beth.

I also find it very interesting that Tommy and Becca talk about Christianity. I'm curious to see where this discussion will take them. On page 200, he says "To most climbers, believing in God is like believing in Santa Clause." As a Catholic, I've found this to be the displayed attitude of not just the climbing community but the entire outdoor industry. Christianity seems to be a taboo. As a performance-oriented rock climber and a practicing Roman Catholic, I find myself in the minority.

[Chris W]

Just finished section three. The thing that stuck out the most to me was Tommy's sense of guilt. He seems to be constantly struggling between his desire(need?) to climb and his obviously call to care for his family.

I've struggled with the same thing. I call it my "father/husband guilt". My higher calling is of course to care for my family, which seems to clash with the seemingly selfish pursuit of climbing. But to care for my family, I need to keep myself healthy, in mind, body and soul. Where do you draw the line?

Very interesting to see that another climber, especially a climber like Caldwell, has the same struggles.

[MarkAnderson]

He doesn’t seem very torn to me; seems like he just goes climbing all the time. Maybe he compensates for that after the fact by feeling guilty. I could never imagine justifying what he did in Patagonia with a baby at home. IMO, he was clearly prioritizing climbing to the exclusion of everything else. So if he’s torn, it’s a 90/10 split or worse.

[Chris W]

Maybe, but it seemed to me that it was pressing on his mind more than that.

On another note, it sounds like the first time he took a scientific, Rock Prodigy style approach to his training was his lead up to his successful Dawn Wall run. He even started to watch his nutrition and dropped 10 pounds. It would be interesting to compare training logs (if he kept one) from the various stages of his climbing career and see how different his training really was.

Another important point, I thought, is that he tore his labrum (both shoulders he confessed in an interview) repeatedly trying a replica of that dyno move.

[MarkAnderson]

Maybe. I’m an “actions” guy, not a “words” guy. Show me, don’t tell me. He shows me he cares way more about climbing.

[Chris W]

Do you think he's portraying himself accurately? I believe that, even with the best intentions, it can be very hard to be truly objective about yourself. It's something I try to consider every time I read an autobiography.

[MarkAnderson]

I doubt that very much. Especially considering the “group effort “ that went into writing it. I suspect some publicist type (or more likely an agent) counseled him to soften some things so as to not come off as a typical climber D-bag.

[MarkAnderson]

Kate read the book too and her female perspective is that he was/is a self-centered guy who just did whatever he wanted without regard for his wife or family. And that from someone with a mini crush for a decade.

I mean, contrast his behavior with your own. Who is the family man?

[jetjackson]

Yeah, being in sales, there is that saying, A fisherman sees a fisherman from afar.

I got the impression there was a bit of a sales pitch in there at points. We all agreed that he was brutally honest in some parts, but I think that in itself can be a strategy. For example, in my grade 10 school camp we were not allowed music.. it was a 5 week school camp. They gave us an 'amnesty' in the first week, so I handed in my walkman. I actually had a discman hidden, but I wasn't suspected because I'd already handed in my Walkman.

The point is, showing weakness, vulnerability or honesty in one area, can be used as a 'smoke-screen' and doesn't mean it applies across the board. I'm with Mark in that actions speak louder than words.

[Chris W]

Nov 21, 2018 13:03:34 GMT -7 MarkAnderson said:

Kate read the book too and her female perspective is that he was/is a self-centered guy who just did whatever he wanted without regard for his wife or family.

Maybe I'm just not reading this with enough of a critical eye. I really want to believe in the best in people. I suppose that's burned me (many times) before in life. I've had many a 'fool me once, shame on you' moments. I'm best at coming to the bare truth in my job; it's become a bit of a blessing, a sixth sense, and has saved a few lives. 

[jetjackson]

In my corporate role, I'd say that two thirds of what is said is an exaggeration, self-promotion, puffery, white lie, or misdirection for the purpose of confidentiality/privacy. I take a pretty pragmatic view of it these days. Unless it's a pretty malicious lie, it doesn't really concern me.

It's pretty hard to achieve things like what TC has without having a pretty single minded focus. There is usually collateral damage in these situations - most typically I'm thinking of the likes of entrepreneurs like Jobs or Musk.

Some people get up in arms about Ondra and his behaviour when he gets upset on not sending something, but it reminds me of the McEnroe vs Borg film, where McEnroe has a monologue with the reporter and says "Do you know I go out there and give everything for this game!? Everything! Everything in me gets left out on that f--king court, and none of you understand it, because none of you do it!" (this bit in the trailer - youtu.be/IgfFdEOGUqE?t=84) - I thought that movie albeit probably also a positive spin on Borg and McEnroe, highlights that single mindedness that it takes to get to the top. I imagine as you start to sacrifice more and more in your life, you might start to think in terms of sunk cost. I've already sacrificed a normal life, my body, my finances... might as well go all in!?

Anyway, it would make sense to me that TC is not being fully transparent, and is putting positive spin on things. The height of performance in many things in life comes at the sacrifice of near everything else.

[Chris W]

Nov 21, 2018 23:49:05 GMT -7 jetjackson said:

The height of performance in many things in life comes at the sacrifice of near everything else.

As a side note, that's why the Olympics and a lot of "professional" sports nauseate me. It seems that, these days, to be an Olympic champion, you have to start grooming a kid from a very young age. I feel like it crushes the childhood of the people involved. I used to compete in an Olympic sport; the thought of it makes me sick. One thing that made climbing appealing to me, besides the activity itself, was that there was no pressure to compete against anyone but myself. 

I'm very careful to make my crag trips with the family all about goofing off and having fun, not climbing (for me) as a goal in itself. Looking for creatures, playing in the boulder "caves", eating Jelly Bellies, throwing rocks in the water (big hit). 

I don't want my kids to be the next greatest [xyz], I want them to be happy and experience the joys of life. 

[MarkAnderson]

Nov 21, 2018 23:49:05 GMT -7 jetjackson said:

it reminds me of the McEnroe vs Borg film,

Obscure reference, but great film!  I love sports biopics/biographies (and biopics in general I guess) because I feel like I learn a lot about the psychology that makes athletes great.

Anyway, I totally agree with your point.  It appears to me that in pretty much every pursuit, it's almost impossible to get to the top with ruffling some feathers.  Makes me wonder what Mother Theresa was like behind the scenes, lol.

[MarkAnderson]

Nov 22, 2018 5:29:17 GMT -7 Chris W said:

I'm very careful to make my crag trips with the family all about goofing off and having fun, not climbing (for me) as a goal in itself. Looking for creatures, playing in the boulder "caves", eating Jelly Bellies, throwing rocks in the water (big hit). 

This is a great example of how you are a better father than me (and most other climbers)! My crag days are all about ME. Granted, I do lots of other things with them that are all about them, but when we're climbing, its about me. FWIW, I think its ok to be a bit selfish at times. We don't want to raise a generation of spoiled brats. But, that's what a selfish person would say

Nov 22, 2018 5:29:17 GMT -7 Chris W said:

I don't want my kids to be the next greatest [xyz], I want them to be happy and experience the joys of life. 

I'm of the same mindset in terms of not wanting to ruin their lives with 8 hours of regimented training starting at age 3, and I couldn't care less if they win an Olympic Medal*. However, I would argue that shaping your body in pursuit of an athletic achievement is one of the "joys of life." I hope to provide them the opportunity to experience that at a high level. The question is how to nudge them in that direction without spoiling it for them. That's where I found The Push most insightful--examining Mike Caldwell's approach to child-rearing and the long-term ramifications of that approach on TC (see what I did there bringing this all back on topic? So baller...).


*Note, there was a time when I would have though there was no greater accomplishment in life than to win an Olympic Gold Medal, but the commerRCTMkicksAssm and hypocrisy of the OIC has become increasingly apparent to me over the years, and pretty much totally ruined this once noble tradition for me.