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Post by MarkAnderson on Oct 20, 2018 12:48:16 GMT -7
Ok, our first book will be "The Push" by Tommy Caldwell. I've never done a book club before, so I guess if you want to participate, get the book, start reading it, and if you read something you think is interesting, discuss here?
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Post by MarkAnderson on Oct 23, 2018 8:42:41 GMT -7
How's everyone doing on their reading?
I finished Ch1 last night. Some pretty interesting parenting information in there. Tommy seems to think that he turned out the way he did because his Dad dragged him outside all the time when he was young. I tend to fall more on the "nature" side of the nature vs nurture debate. I think 9 out of 10 kids would have completely rebelled against Mike Caldwell's parenting approach. My guess is that Tommy was pre-disposed to like those things based on the genes his Dad passed down to him. In my estimation, it was still important for Mike to expose Tommy to those things at an early age, but fortunately Tommy had the right mindset to not reject them.
Another thing I found interesting is Tommy's inference that his dad used steroids extensively and his implication that he may have suffered from "Roid Rage."
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Post by jetjackson on Oct 23, 2018 15:25:38 GMT -7
I didn't realise we were going chapter by chapter... I better keep up! I have finished up to end of Chapter 1 also though.
First impressions are that the writing is solid. I have not checked the blurb, but I understand Tommy wrote it himself. The 'prologue' or whatever it is called, pre-chapter 1, set the scene very well.
To be honest, I read that chapter and was sort of taking mental parenting notes for future use. Not having children yet, I'm not really across all those debates I expect new parents have. I've always been a big believer that we have a pretty large scope to change parts of our personality, and generally reject the idea that we have some sort of inherent nature that cannot be, and is not, rewired over long periods of time. Actually I think there was a good podcast on this - check out Invisibilia - The Personality Myth.
Some insight on this could possibly be gained from whatever his sister is now doing in life, given she was exposed to similar thngs, however that would also be influenced/biased by imprinted gender roles etc.
As for the "Roid Rage" - Again, from some cursory reading, I understand that "Roid Rage" is a myth, and that it's more correlation, rather than causation. Given Tommy's father's strong personality, it wouldn't surprise me if he was predisposed to outbursts of rage anyway.
I find it interesting that Tommy did not inherit the vanity aspect of his fathers personality with regards to bodybuilding and body image.
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Post by Chris W on Oct 23, 2018 18:04:03 GMT -7
My book is still in the mail. Not much interest in The Push in York PA, but it should arrive soon.
I'll be interested to read about the "parenting information", but I can be a pretty harsh critic. As a father of four children (7, 5, 3 and 1) I have some pretty strong opinions. This past Sunday, I took everyone out to the crag. I make it a point to go out of my way to include the kids on my adventures, but it is very challenging. The three older kids are pretty easy now, but it's hard to go anywhere with a one year old. Sometimes I ask myself if it is worth it (like when I was 50 feet up setting up a toprope with the baby screaming at the base), but I keep bringing them back. They all seem to have so much fun (sorry about your nap Gabriel!).
Regarding nature, I agree with Mark that it can play a very significant role. My oldest daughter is EXACTLY like my wife, with the exception of her blond hair. My three brothers and I all turned out very different, though we had the same upbringing and opportunities. None of my brothers would even come close to the level of fanatic commitment I have to my training.
I don't buy into the "imprinted gender roles" thing. I don't have to look any further than my own children (two boys, two girls) to find proof that it's bunk.
Also, as a physician, I can attest to the fact that "Roid Rage" is not totally a myth. There is both correlation and causation. I've seen it many times.
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richb
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by richb on Oct 24, 2018 7:29:58 GMT -7
I'm four chapters in. Love the discussion of Tommy's personality here.
What struck me was how lonely he was, how his mom and sister were barely mentioned, and (reading between the lines) how Mike must have been away from the family for months at a time for Tommy's early childhood, how cold and silent the house likely felt.
Then the action really picked up when Mike started bringing him along on climbing adventures - now Tommy finally had an avenue to win some parental attention and approval. Being recognized for being good at climbing belatedly provided him with a sense of self and an identity.
Of course Tommy never would have become what he is without copious genetic gifts, but to me the crucial "nurture" element here was that climbing was a way out of loneliness.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Oct 27, 2018 8:39:10 GMT -7
How's everyone's reading coming along? I feel like a high school English teacher...
Anyway, I finished Part 2 last night. Warning, major Part 2 spoilers ahead. If you're struggling to get through Part 1, I assure you the drama and intrigue picks up significantly in Part 2! There's not a whole lot I found particularly interesting from a climbing perspective. I've already read Greg Child's account of the Kyrgyzstan incident so there wasn't a lot there that I didn't know (though obviously, reading about it from Tommys perspective was very interesting).
What really strikes me so far is the incredible courage of Tommy's writing. The guy just completely bares his soul in this book. It's one thing to write about a climbing failure, it's quite another to describe in intimate detail the day-to-day struggles of a high-profile failing marriage. Perhaps he feels like climbers have been gossiping about it for years, so its a relief to be able to tell his side of the story. But I don't think I could ever do that. The guys got serious stones!
The other thing I find really remarkable is his pervasive insecurity. I watched his entire career unfold in front of me, including meeting him (superficially) a couple times, and in my estimation the guy was absolutely REVERRED in the US climbing community. I mean people didn't just look up to him, they were in awe of him. So to read about him lacking confidence in himself--wondering if he had what it took to be a pro, looking up to guys like Dean Potter and wondering if he could ever be at their level, climbing with Sharma and coming away feeling like sport climbing was no use--is just mind-boggling. From my perspective it seemed like the guy was living the ultimate climber's fantasy, but reading his version of it really makes me appreciate some of the things I have and take for granted.
As far as "what can we learn from it?" I think his relentless insecurity and self-doubt drove him to accomplish great things as a climber. It's a pretty common tale in pro sports--the athlete with a "chip on their shoulder," who is always struggling (at least in their own mind) to prove something. Although I think he seriously under-estimates his natural talents (he won Snowbird, the biggest US sport climbing comp at the time, with no training or prep, without ever having done a comp before, without knowing he was going to do it, on his second day on, as a teenager), his drive to always one-up his own accomplishments--rooted in feelings of inadequacy--is what allowed him to shatter standards. I think those who accomplish a lot have an enormous well of motivation that drives the years of sustained effort that are necessary to be your best. That's something we all need to identify and tap into.
Regarding Beth Rodden, I feel like during the time of their break up she took a lot of shit for cheating on Tommy [note, Tommy never comes right out and says she cheated, but reading between the lines its impossible for me to believe she didn't[EDIT TO ADD: My wife tells me she's pretty sure Beth has said she cheated on her blog]], but I now find myself much more sympathetic to her situation. First of all, she tried to break up with Tommy right before the Kyrgyzstan trip and he wouldn't have it. Then this incredibly traumatic event happens, and nobody knows how to handle it, including mental health professionals. Before they know what's happening they are international celebrities and branded as "the climbing couple." It's easy for me to see 1) being confused about your feelings for the other person in that situation, especially if its a first love, and 2) allowing yourself to get swept up in the external momentum pushing you slowly towards marriage. Probably, they should've gone their separate ways before the Kyrgyzstan debacle, but since they didn't (and who could have foreseen how that unfolded), they ended up in the most logical situation. I think in retrospect they accomplished a lot together and are really lucky they never had kids. I imagine Beth knew all along on some level that their relationship wasn't quite right, but Tommy's stubborn determination to not fail kept things afloat. Again, I admire the courage they both showed in calling it quits. Given their profile, it might have been easier in some ways to stick together and suffer through life struggling to live up to the public's expectations.
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Post by Chris W on Oct 27, 2018 19:40:36 GMT -7
How's everyone's reading coming along? I feel like a high school English teacher... Mine still hasn't arrived. When I get it, I'll weigh in. I have to order all my books, so I'll have a little lag time between when we pick a book and when I can get my hands on it. Sorry Plus, I'm pretty sure you read a lot faster than me.
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Post by climber511 on Oct 28, 2018 13:31:49 GMT -7
Mine's coming thru the local library. I'll catch up - I read fast.
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Post by jetjackson on Oct 28, 2018 18:15:06 GMT -7
How's everyone's reading coming along? I feel like a high school English teacher... I'm up to the bit where Tommy has just finished his second big wall experience. I tried to read more on the weekend, but we had a big day that included an alpine start, a 7km roundtrip approach, cleaning trad gear on a 45 degree overhang while getting swooped by a Falcon... then I slept 10 hours on both Sat/Sun. Fell asleep trying to read more of these stories of big wall epics in the book, that make my day look like a walk in the park, and I can't even fathom how completely stuffed they must be afterwards. As a predominantly sport climber, I just feel like I have no grit in comparison to these guys.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Nov 3, 2018 8:31:54 GMT -7
So on Sunday I gave my copy of the book to my wife to read since I'm waiting for you all to catch up. She finished it last night. She has a full time job and takes care of two kids, and one adult child. Just sayin', but I see you all have lots of free time to talk about chalk PS, she tells me we can look forward to some intriguing skin care advice and hangboard talk in Part 3. So you can look forward to that!
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Post by RobF on Nov 3, 2018 9:21:02 GMT -7
Ha ha ha- I've seen the film but not got the book yet. How do people feel about what you get out of each???
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Post by climber511 on Nov 3, 2018 12:56:52 GMT -7
Just picked mine up at the library - I'll start reading this evening.
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Post by Chris W on Nov 3, 2018 19:53:36 GMT -7
Still haven't received mine. Books-A-Million said to "wait a couple more days and call if it hasn't come". I'm going to Fayetteville tomorrow and will pick up a copy if they have it at Waterstone Outdoors.
BTW, just two kids??!?!? Call me when you have four...
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Post by jetjackson on Nov 3, 2018 21:36:19 GMT -7
Okay, I finished part 2 last night. Great summary Mark! Tommy really puts himself out there - he's brutally transparent, down to his internal dialogue during the marriage break-up and it makes for really insightful reading. Having not been around at the time, I have no other reference points aside from recently seeing the movie, which (kinda spoiler alert), doesn't really go into it much beyond stating that it was the foundation for his motivation to spend time on the dawn wall. The other reference point was listening to his Enormocast interview - but from memory I don't recall that interview actually going into the reasons for the break-up, just discussing his emotions coming out of it. I came out of those chapters understanding a bit better the motivations for Beth's actions, but still felt it could have been handled better, rather than the old monkey approach of not letting go of one branch until the other hand is firmly gripped onto the next one. On the topic of podcasts, and the Enormocast, this morning on the way to the crag I was listening to an older one where they go over listener letters, and they discuss dating in climbing, and how feelings can get confusing with men and women who go through high pressure situations that involve fear, and it can trigger the 'love' emotional response and confuse things. Chris K mentions on the podcast some research around this fear state and how it can influence people to be attracted to others. See - www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-embodied-mind/201301/sexual-attraction-and-survival-mode after I did some googling on it. That whole conversation comes to mind now, reading your comment Mark, and I didn't link the two together until now. In terms of your commentary around TC's insecurities - I can somewhat relate to that. I was bullied through school, and was somewhat of an outcast - not good at sports, and whilst somewhat naturally intelligent, I never applied myself, so did not do well in school either. I failed high school, got in a bit of trouble with the authorities, and then pulled myself together in my 20s and hustled my way into an alternate path into University. Subsequently I have built out a respectable career. However, I still have these recurring dreams, at least once a month, where I am back repeating high school (I hear this is common) and the theme of the dream is "I'm going to show them how good I am now", or the other theme "someone has found out that I didn't do well at school and I have to go back and repeat it". Additionally, I'll have recurring thoughts where I imagine myself seeing people I went to school with and spraying them down with humble brags (by the way, I've had these interactions, and they never seem to go that way, people who were a-holes in school actually have turned out as half decent people a lot of the time). This is also probably why I tend to overcompensate on the self-promotion, and how I ended up in a sales career. Anyway, I've had the discussion with my brother about it before, and I've noted to him that I could probably go and see a psyche and change these thought patterns and eliminate the recurring dream, but, as a tool for motivating me to do things, I don't see them as necessarily negative thought patterns. They don't really make me depressed or down, and they don't feel like negative thought patterns, just another reason to get out of bed and kick some ass. Along those lines, I've read a few articles, like this one www.fastcompany.com/3022152/why-insecurity-may-be-the-key-to-success - and they are mostly in the business sphere - not sport. Some even talk about companies having a hiring process that specifically targets, talented, yet insecure people, because of their high level of productivity. I wouldn't think the insecurities thing is that uncommon, and I'd say my experience wouldn't be that unique. I expect different people just have different sources of insecurity.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Nov 4, 2018 8:57:58 GMT -7
Great stuff Jet (and I'm glad to hear life has worked out for you). I think your story is really common in climbing, at least parts of it. I think I've said before that in my experience lots of climbers are outcasts and/or un-athletic types (in the traditional sense), who always fantasized about being the star athlete but couldn't compete in mainstream sports, or felt left out of mainstream sports. Socially, I've always felt climbing was a sport of misfits, and I really liked that*, although I haven't noticed that part of it driving performance very often (not that it doesn't exist--I failed to identify it regularly as a driver in others). Ironically though, climbing still isn't a utopian, merit-based society and maybe that is the lesson from Tommy's insecurities. It seems to me that once the misfits congregate (in climbing, or whatever diversion), they construct their own Lord-of-the-Flies-style, oppressive social structure. At least in my experience and/or through my jaded lens, climbing appears to have a social hierarchy, based on ability to some extent, but also based as much or more so on superficial factors, and this hierarchy is not much different than any other sport, or any other social group. This is surely some of my insecurity coming out, but it seems to me there are cool-guy climbers and nerdy-guy climbers, and the cool-guy climber is always getting more attention, more press, more sponsorship relative to his ability than the nerdy-guy climber. I'm sure we've all gone to the climbing gym and see a handsome guy with big muscles and assumed he was a good climber. I still do this today. This makes sense from a marketing perspective--sponsors are looking for people that others idolize. Do most people idolize the nerdy guy or the cool guy?** It's just weird to think of Tommy as the nerdy-guy. Certainly contrasted to Sharma, he's the nerdy guy, but I always thought of him as climbing royalty, so to discover that this whole time he was just as insecure as the next guy, if not more so, is pretty surprising. On the one hand, its kinda sad--it shows no matter how awesome you become as a climber you will never overcome imperfect hair (etc), neither in the eyes of the community/industry nor in your own mind. On the other hand, looking at the bright side, it shows the power of that kind of motivation. Maybe we're*** better off with our emotional baggage driving us to be great, than those born with superficial life advantages. [*I certainly fit that mold--my middle school days were really bleak socially, and I guess by current definitions I was bullied relentlessly, although not physically; I was merely relentlessly picked on. I definitely developed a "I'm gonna show them" attitude, but it came a bit earlier than most perhaps, because I was able to redirect that misery in high school and actually became a pretty successful athlete by the end, just not in the popular/cool-guy sports. Incidentally I also found a great social group through the Cross Country team and was able to recover some self-esteem by the time high school ended, but I still felt inferior/felt I had something to prove to the traditional "jocks," and I've carried that attitude with me throughout the rest of my life. I still feel "inadequate" as a climber, I don't like climbing in front of others; doing routes like To Bolt or Shadowboxing were really hard for me mentally because they're so public.] [**I can attest at the semi-pro level, speaking specifically about sponsorship and media attention, its definitely "uncool" to have a regular-person job rather than living in a van and traveling the world. For a long time it was also uncool to have kids, but now that many of the top climbers are having kids that's becoming less of an issue. Its still uncool to talk about your kids, involve your kids in your climbing, or let them prevent you from spending 3 months a year in Patagonia, 3 months in Spain, etc. You can have them as long as they are in the distant background with some mysterious partner caring for them. I'm lucky to have a sponsor that looks past those issues, albeit a modest one. Regardless, its still uncool to be bald Anyway, I feel like perhaps my most amazing achievement in life is that I've almost succeeded in making spreadsheets and hangboarding "cool." At least its not seen as a circus freak show the way it was when I started in 2000. Note that most of that was accomplished by convincing one successful cool guy to do it once and have his picture taken doing it, haha] [*** apologies, but I assume if you're reading this forum you fit into the "nerdy-guy" category ]
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