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Post by Chris W on Nov 27, 2017 6:03:18 GMT -7
I need help developing a plan for my supplemental exercises. I don't expect a stronger upper body to help me climb a higher grade, but I do expect it to help me keep my body healthier, allowing me to train harder with less pain. My shoulders ache in every PE and Performance phase. I'm currently nursing/rehabing a biceps tendonosis brought on by carrying around my 40 pound son over rocks and hills at the New River Gorge. Front levers? Never. One arm pullups? Not even close; I can barely do 8 pullups at body weight (with perfect form, on rings, pausing at the top for 1-2 seconds). I'm constantly guarding against elbow tendonitis by performing maintenance exercises to keep it away. Can't even come close to doing a one arm lock off.
I've been experimenting with a SE plan for the last several years, and haven't come up with a good one yet. Lately, I've been doing 7 exercises, 3 sets of each, 3 minutes rest between sets. During the ARC phase, I've been doing 8 reps, Strength down to 6 reps, Power, PE and Performance phases 4 reps at the same weight as 6 reps, just trying to maintain strength. I've been doing (all with dumbbells) bench press, pullups, shoulder (military) press, curls, lateral raises, I's Y's and T's (has helped shoulder pain tremendously) and some deadlifts (just to help my lower back, not to help my climbing). Also doing abs, but I'm content with those for now.
I'm currently not doing pullups at all, since it's too painful on my biceps and brachioradialis, and am doing rows on my rings instead. I'm also not doing curls, and instead am doing eccentric curls to rehab the painful tendonosis. I'm not pushing the weights on any of those exercises right now and am focusing on moving pain free first.
I've read a lot of articles and listened to a lot of podcasts. I don't quite get the current trend of olympic lifts and deadlifts (I know I'm doing some, but that's for different reasons). A lot of folks are advocating heavy weights. I've contemplated picking up a copy of Steve Bechtel's book Strength. I listened to an interesting podcast on Power Company recently advocating 5 sets of 2 reps, 5 exercises. Whatever I do, it needs to fit with my Rock Prodigy training. Help me cut through the fog.
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Post by Charlie S on Nov 27, 2017 7:30:47 GMT -7
For shoulders, I've found the following helpful: I's and T's with a TRX (usually 3 sets of 8, each exercise) Scapular Pullups (3 sets of 10) Rear Deltoid (3 sets of 8 at a weight which makes that happen; this is that weird reverse fly machine, very similar to a T) Military Press (3 sets of 8)
If I do I's and T's, I don't do the Rear Deltoid machine. If I do Military Press, I don't bench.
Benching is fun, but I haven't found it to be much of a help or detriment (to me).
Deadlifting has helped with my famously weak core.
To help cut through the fog, here is what a "typical" week looks like for me, each phase:
ARC: S: Rest M: ARC 2x30 min T: Core, bench, deadlift, shoulders, other SEs based on what's open and available, or stairmaster/cardio W: ARC 1x30 min T: Core, bench, deadlift, shoulders, other SEs based on what's open and available, or stairmaster/cardio F: ARC 2x30 min S: Outside!
Strength/Hangboard: S: Hangboard M: ARC/putz around on the wall, nothing hard. T: Core, bench, deadlift, shoulders, other SEs based on what's open and available, or stairmaster/cardio W: Hangboard T: Core, bench, deadlift, shoulders, other SEs based on what's open and available, or stairmaster/cardio F: ARC/putz around on the wall, nothing hard, or stairmaster/cardio S: Outside! Again, nothing hard.
Power: S: Rest M: Limit boulder T: Core, other SEs based on what's open and available, or stairmaster/cardio W: (Sometimes) Limit boulder. Depends on what happened Monday/Tuesday or what will happen Friday. T: Core, other SEs based on what's open and available, or stairmaster/cardio F: Limit boulder S: Outside! Again, nothing hard. Identify current project; get on it to work moves.
Power Endurance: S: Rest M: PE T: Core, other SEs based on what's open and available, or stairmaster/cardio W: Stairmaster/Cardio T: Maintenance Hangboard F: Rest (usually) S: Outside! Again, nothing hard. Identify current project; get on it to work moves.
For Strength and Power Endurance, the hard pulling SEs are usually dropped (so like bent-over rows, heavy deadlifts, etc.)
My wife would tell you that my "normal" workouts are pretty pathetic. Something about not sweating?
All of this is based on feel and my approach may be totally wrong. Take it for what it's worth. I'm also not seeing huge gains across the SE strength, but for the most part I remain injury free.
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Post by climber511 on Nov 27, 2017 7:49:02 GMT -7
You've climbed and trained almost exclusively for climbing until you are injured. Adding weight training on top of that is just asking for more trouble at this point. First you need to get healthy. Take some time off and rehab or at the least back off and rehab until you are no longer injured (or at the least much improved). Then you can safely add additional stresses to your routine. One of weight training's benefits is it's ability to restore a more balanced strength across joints - something climbing really doesn't do that well. This also seems to make you more resilient and less prone to injury. Weight work can be a part of your rehab program but care must be taken to keep it "rehab" and not go over the line into "work".
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richb
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by richb on Nov 27, 2017 10:46:34 GMT -7
A few followup questions for you, Chris: What RCTM phase are you in right now? Strength as part of a carry-over microcycle? Is your elbow pain under control right now? Is the biceps problem since the NRG a recurring thing, or did it only start after that trip? How much do you rest during each phase? And do you rest on days immediately after HB, campus, or LB, or do you do your SE the day after?
I've found that certain SE, especially one-arm inverted rows or pullups, really push me over the edge into feeling overtrained (flareups in my shoulders, biceps, elbows, etc.). It seems like it helps to keep the day after HB, campus or LB completely rest, and do my light SE routine either the day before, or right after on the day of. But then I'm one of those climbers who always benefits from a ton of rest.
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Post by Chris W on Nov 27, 2017 11:17:15 GMT -7
You've climbed and trained almost exclusively for climbing until you are injured. Yes That's what I'm trying to do for this winter transitional season. I feel like I have a good idea on how to rehab things, since I've done it successfully before.
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Post by RobF on Nov 27, 2017 11:32:44 GMT -7
As others have said might be worth climbing some slabs for a while/ taking a short break. A while back I listened to a podcast from a tennis coach on the development of tendonopathies. He said in elite tennis the only relevant factor was strokes per year. It did not matter whether these strokes were done fast or slow or once a week or five times a week. If the total yearly strokes was kept below the threshold then tendonopathies did not develop, above the threshold then the tendonopathies were almost guaranteed. This threshold was not the same for all individuals and did not really correlate with number of years training. Basically you have to find your annual limit (I guess through trial and error) and stick with it. Although you haven't said so much about this- consider your diet. Ensure your macros are adequate for healing, particularly protein for tendons and ligaments. Once I get round to it will update the cortisol thread I set up as have found some interesting stuff, but are you running on adrenaline all the time? Stressors both physical and mental will provoke the hpa axis and cortisol levels will be elevated. One of the effects is breaking down protein into carbohydrate (gluconeogenesis). This happens at all levels from muscles to any form of connective tissue including tendons and ligaments. I haven't gotten far enough into my reading just yet to see how much of a risk factor cortisol is for tendonopathies but I can imagine its up there with other things. Fast ice can be good- basically quickly rubbing an ice cube over the effected tendon. Also a spiky ball massage over the relevant muscle bellies can help loosen off any knots.
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Post by RobF on Nov 27, 2017 11:53:40 GMT -7
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Post by erick on Nov 27, 2017 11:58:44 GMT -7
Power Company just put out a great podcast with Dan John. He advocates for a really simple program, pick 5 lifts and do them (and only those) all year.
I had an assessment with Steve Bechtel this summer where he tested my overall strength in lots of areas. Based on my fitness (Chris by your description we have similar strength except my lock off is pretty good) and what I have available for (two kettle Bells and Rings) this is what Steve recommended me do. These recommendations are not to help me climb better but are mostly for overall body endurance and injury prevention.
Overhead Press @ 45# KB 1 Arm pushup in rings leaning at the angle that makes them possible KB swings @ 45# Turkish Get ups @ 45# KB Pistol Squats (using some bands to help since these are really hard for me)
3 sets of 5 reps for each except the get up, for that 1 rep on each side is a set. He gave me some other workouts but told me to make sure I finished these first. From simplifying things I can tell you I have seen real improvement in my overall strength and my body does feel more resilient now than it was 6 months ago. Also I am much for likely to actually do these than I was when I was doing large workouts with 6+ reps each. Many of these lifts started out VERY difficult but are now feeling much better and I may need to progress the exercise by adding additional sets. If I had a full squat rack plus bar/weights I would switch out the KB swings for Dead Lifts, the Pistol Squats for regular squats, and the KB press for Military press.
Eric
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Post by aikibujin on Nov 27, 2017 12:20:00 GMT -7
The fact that you have aches and pains maybe isn’t an indication that you’re not strong enough, but that you’re not work the right muscles / doing the exercises correctly? Maybe check with a trainer or coach to make sure you’re doing your exercises with good form. Personally I’d drop the bicep curls if I’m already doing pullups, I haven’t done bicep curls in more than ten years. I feel the biceps already get a good workout with pullups, unless you’re training for moves that targets the biceps very specifically (really hard underclings?), just one pulling exercise is probably enough. I’d replace the bicep curls with another shoulder exercise, maybe wings on the gymnastic rings (if you have them), which is the opposite motion of the lateral raises.
I also vary my rep scheme (and exercises) from one phase to another, but at a much wider range. In my strength phase, I do sets of 8-10 reps, in my power phase, I do sets of 2-4 reps, and in my endurance phase I do sets of 20 or more. Obviously I have to adjust the difficulty of the exercise (or change the exercise entirely) to make it work.
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Post by RobF on Nov 27, 2017 13:49:26 GMT -7
Adding to the above good point: at a very basic level hypertrophy (increase in muscle size) comes from volume, and strength from intensity. Keeping the maths simple as there are various thoughts on optimum amounts of training for both. Strength 5 sets x 3 reps (= 15 reps total) Hypertrophy 5 sets x 8 reps (= 40 reps total)
Have a play around with the way that you achieve the total reps (with the appropriate / required weight to reach muscular fatigue at the end). The aim- as always should be perfect form at all times.
e.g.'s (among many): 15 singles, 5,4,3,2,1 for strength 10 sets of 4 for hypertrophy
Quite often I'll switch from 3's or 5's to singles if training when tired- generally works ok.
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Post by Lundy on Nov 27, 2017 20:39:32 GMT -7
Hey Chris, I think of my "supplemental exercises" in two parts. First, because I'm old, and the benefits of lifting are very well documented in us "seniors", and because I'm really generally weak, I don't really do my strength training as "supplemental". I train climbing three days a week, and I train with weights two days a week. On my lifting days, I do a good warmup, then mix in a lot of mobility work (back, shoulders, hips) with two exercises each day. On Thursdays, I deadlift and do weighted pull-ups; on Sundays, I do bench press and front squats. The protocol I use is called 5-3-1 which is very common in the powerlifting world. You can google it and find tons of information about it. I'm not sure how much all of this helps my climbing, but I do know that (a) weighted pull-ups are obviously applicable, (b) deadlifting has both eliminated back pain and provided me with the ability to keep tension through my feet on steep climbs, (c) bench press seems to keep my elbows healthy (do narrow grip, though, to avoid shoulder aggravation), and (d) squats probably don't do much for my climbing.
As far as the other parts of my supplemental exercises, these are all my pre-hab things. Twice a week I do bands for my rotator cuffs, swing indian clubs, do light shoulder exercises with dumbells, and do crunches on an ab mat. Twice a week I do wall slides, shoulder press (with slightly heavier dumbells, but nothing crazy), and ab twists with bands for resistance.
While it seems like a lot, my lifting sessions are quite short, as I'm only doing 6 sets of lifts on 3 minutes each, plus warm-up and mobility. The rest of the prehab exercises don't take more than 15 minutes a day. So the overall time commitment is pretty manageable.
Hope some of these ideas are helpful.
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dsm
New Member
Posts: 48
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Post by dsm on Nov 28, 2017 0:19:24 GMT -7
Yeah, I have twin toddlers about 40 lbs each who love to be carried and God my back hurts sometimes especially after sitting down all day.
This season I backed off my usual circuit training SEs and I started a basic rings program plus stretching everyday. After a month I feel solid improvement in my upper body strength and flexibility. I'm only a third of the way through the rings program so I'm not sure what I'll feel about it in the end, but I'm enjoying the skill aspect of working on the rings. A lot of movements on the rings are pushing type movements, so you get some antagonist work in there to combat elbow tendonitis. That said, I still do four weight exercises (lat pulldowns, shoulder press, tricep pushdown and bicep curls) mainly because I enjoy seeing myself push my numbers.
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Post by Chris W on Nov 28, 2017 10:52:53 GMT -7
OK, thanks everyone for your responses. I'm specifically looking towards developing a plan to increase strength in my climbing (but not my finger and forearm) muscles.
So right now, I'm in the strength phase of a transitional winter season. My elbow pain is under control, biceps have only recently become a problem. I rest every other day, or every third day.
I have an in depth knowledge of hormones and human physiology. I don't believe I need to take a total break, but as climber511 has said, I'm actively working to rehab my body. I have a lot of knowledge and experience with rehab.
Erick, I listened to that podcast with Dan Jon right before starting this thread. I like the idea of picking 5 exercises and sticking with them. I'm really interested in the strength work and information Bechtel has to offer, but I just can't wrap my head around doing things like KB swings, turkish get ups, and pistol squats. Bechtel makes a point to say that running doesn't benefit your climbing, but I could make the same argument about pistol squats.
My lifting form, I believe, is almost perfect. I've worked on some subtle changes over the last decade to make sure my lifts are more body friendly and "ergonomic" (though I hate that word).
Lundy, I haven't thought about splitting my SE over several days, but that's something I'll consider. That would play into the question I'm asking myself about frequency of SE exercises. What's ideal to develop strength? I've settled on no greater than once every 3 days, primarily because that's the hangboard protocol, but I'm not sure if it's the best way to go.
DSM, 40 pound twin toddlers?!? I'd be interested to hear your approach on cragging and training and traveling with kids. I have 4 kids, ages 6, 4, 2 and new. It's a bit of a circus sometimes.
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Post by aikibujin on Nov 28, 2017 13:07:18 GMT -7
Erick, I listened to that podcast with Dan Jon right before starting this thread. I like the idea of picking 5 exercises and sticking with them. I'm really interested in the strength work and information Bechtel has to offer, but I just can't wrap my head around doing things like KB swings, turkish get ups, and pistol squats. Bechtel makes a point to say that running doesn't benefit your climbing, but I could make the same argument about pistol squats. I’m also not a fan of the Olympic lifts and KB exercises. I think their popularity is because for a long time climbers (and the population in general) have been training our cores the wrong way, when something that’s more functional comes along, we are all like, “this is much better than crunches and planks! They must be the best exercises for training our core!” I’m a huge fan of bodyweight exercises. Before I got a hangboard, I didn’t even own any weights. Now that I have a set of gymnastic rings, I can make my exercises hard enough without using any additional weights. So while I think deadlifts and KB are good exercises, I think there are better exercises on rings that transfer to climbing better. But since I’m a fan of bodyweight exercises, I will defend pistol squat though. I think if you want to incorporate any sort of squatting exercise in your routine for climbing performance, pistol squat is the one. Think about doing a high step, rock over, and stand up on that foot. Pistol squat helps you develop the flexibility, balance, and strength to do that move.
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dsm
New Member
Posts: 48
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Post by dsm on Nov 28, 2017 13:46:38 GMT -7
Actually they're probably more like low 30 lbs but still...And sometimes they BOTH want to be carried simultaneously which really kills my back.
I wish I had good advice to give but I haven't taken them to a crag. They are still young and I am 99% sure it would devolve into chaos, at least now. When I climb outside (which is pretty rare at this point), I go by myself and I just boulder and take it really easy. I think next summer we might try for Yosemite. If we do, I'll probably be on these forums asking for advice of my own!
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