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Post by jrblack on Nov 4, 2017 23:30:14 GMT -7
I've noticed that a lot of training programs prescribe a fixed amount of rest to structure the week in a workable fashion. But I would think older climbers need more rest to recover from a workout than a 20 yr old with HGH teeming in his/her body. Lee Sheftel (who still climbs 5.13 at age 70) says he needs more rest than when he was younger, and Bill Ramsey says that the recovery that used to take a day now takes 2 days.
I'm 55 and trying to follow the same rest intervals as given in RCTM but wondering if I should take more?! What do you older climbers say? How much time do you take after a hangboard workout? Or power? Or whatever?!
People like to say "listen to your body" but I don't know what that means. I feel psyched every day and want to exercise, so ... not sure when I really should rest instead of climb.
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Post by climbnkev on Nov 5, 2017 8:30:29 GMT -7
At 45, I find that personally I do best with more frequent but less intense sessions for optimal recovery. So for instance if doing a hard Bouldering day with Vsum >= 100 it will take 3 -4 days to recover from. If I half the volume and do 45 Min of hard Bouldering I can have a similar session after 1 day rest. So if I keep my sessions under 1 hour I can train every other day at a fairly high level. This also seems to be where I do best maintaining technique. Your capacity for training has more to do with your training age then your actual age and is something that is variable between individuals.
I would say that the RP training plan is fairly low volume when compared to other plans. So i think it would be best to try the plan as outlined unless you find yourself feeling over-trained.
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Post by Lundy on Nov 5, 2017 12:11:33 GMT -7
I'm 42, and I do add extra rest, but not between workouts. Rather, I follow the standard plan for 3 weeks, then do a de-load week. So every fourth week for me is super light and chill -- maybe just one trip to the climbing gym to have fun casually climbing, then on the 5th week I'm back on the plan. This has worked really well for me, as I was finding that the RCTM protocol was breaking me down too far without that extra rest.
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Post by jetjackson on Nov 5, 2017 21:28:07 GMT -7
I'm 33, so not that old. I have noticed this season that as I push harder I'm showing more signs of stress overload. Granted, I've started a new job and I'm travelling a lot for work - interstate every other week, plus other life stressors is hampering my recovery.
I have not taken a serious rest from climbing this year, apart from a couple of 1 week rests while sick/mildly injured and about a week between cycles.
I'm considering 2 weeks off over Christmas to give my body the chance to really recover from the niggles.
Apart from the normal rests during cycles, do you take longer periods off - how much time do you take off between cycles - has that extended as you 'get older'
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Post by jrblack on Nov 5, 2017 21:42:03 GMT -7
As a random data point: Adam Ondra takes 2 weeks off each year during Christmas, but otherwise takes zero rest. He's a bit younger than I, however.
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Post by jetjackson on Nov 5, 2017 21:43:13 GMT -7
Yeah, That's what I'm thinking. We'll be with family, and close to the beach down here in Oz. Might as well enjoy it.
Adam Ondra probably not the best data point to go by though, guys a monster.
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Post by RobF on Nov 8, 2017 12:03:58 GMT -7
Lots to consider both for general recovery for all climbers of all ages, but also recovery in the older / more mature climber. I've found by training more wisely I've managed to just about stave off the age related losses so far (aged 42).
Older climbers normally have a lot more lifestyle baggage (stressors)to factor in - jobs, mortgages, relationships, kids futures etc. All of which will have an impact on the adrenal system (HPA axis) and cortisol responses, zapping your precious training gains. Hopefully it is possible to formulate a realistic 3-6 month training plan to fit in around the above- but also allow for unseen problems along the way. If I get 80% of my plan completed then I'm happy.
Would agree with deload weeks roughly every 4-6 weeks. Think about training adaptation timescales for different types of training (power vs power endurance vs stamina). There's no need to do nothing on weeks off, general physical prep (GPP) work is fine - ideally of a concentric only nature.
These are useful things I've tried to factor in:
Number one - Don't get injured (either acute or chronic)- practice whole body preventative exercises. Think about the future: as you get older there may be the early signs of the development of more chronic diseases be that early arthritis or glucose intolerance (2 examples among many). I've seen many many talented climbers over the years in their teens / early 20's who eat / sleep climbing for 2 or 3 years then get injured and never see them ever again- which is a shame really.
Illness - stay away from ill people / don't over-train / eat, sleep and recover well. Get some sunlight- there's so many indoor only climbers who look as pale as anything (a bit of vitamin d would do wonders for their energy, recovery, immune system, complexion)
Think long term / annual - have goals / trips / comps to work towards. Keep the training plan fresh- try new training methods or different types of exercises.
Take time off each year - it is a bind losing fitness but keeps your body healthy. A month of fun easy climbing is good / pressure free.
Have psyched partners- try keep up with the youngsters (just not on them daft world cup style problems)
Train sensibly - you can never have too much finger strength. Finger endurance stops you getting scared too. Above all think specificity of training. Ask yourself- what within this training session / cycle will help me get up that route from A to B. If it won't help then ditch it, if it helps then do more of it!
Live near a cliff / 2nd best a climbing wall. If not then defo build a basic home training facility. Warm up well before using.
Go deep water soloing at least once every year- there's nothing better when you're fit and enjoying a day of on-sighting classics.
Have to say that I'm always very impressed when I see older climbers climbing hard- there's so much they are getting right in the background just to get that successful redpoint. Sure there's lots more- these are just the ones that came to the top of my head at present having gotten home from a long day at work and trying to decide whether I should train tonight...
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Post by jetjackson on Nov 8, 2017 16:56:02 GMT -7
Great post Rob - I feel the biggest challenge is working the rest of life around climbing, and I don't even have kids yet. It's why I'm sold on the Anderson way, as they've managed to continue operating at a high level whilst raising families and still achieving other things in their professional lives. I wonder if age is such an issue if you're married to another climber, with a well paying but stress free job, and no children.
With work, I might train on a Monday night, then Tuesday morning I have to wake up at 4am to catch a flight interstate for meetings, inevitably I get a bad sleep the night before and then I'm sleeping in a hotel Tuesday night, by the time I get back home to train on Wednesday night I'm not fully recovered from the last session, let alone ready for the next. I imagine bringing up children is just as challenging for the sleep/recovery cycle.
The illness thing is also a pain. I've been sick 3 times this past winter. I spoke to the Doctor about it, and he just said, "Welcome to Melbourne." (I just moved here 6 months ago) - Doctor said that he's worked in a few places but seasonal illness seems to get really bad here. The flip side to that is that I live super close to the Grampians and Arapiles now, and am there every other weekend. I did read a comment somewhere from someone who said they were told as a younger athlete to avoid touching their face – maybe something I should get in the habit of – I touch my face a lot, particularly in frustration at work.
Noting the OPs point about Lee Sheftel and Bill Ramsay - I listened to the training beta podcast interview with Lee the other week and I thought it was interesting that he talks about taking more rest, but that his rest days still often involve hiking or some other activity that he is at least well practiced in, but he's not sitting around doing nothing. He also noted in that podcast that he thought climbing hard into older age would be a lot harder with children.
As you say, part of being a good climber is managing your life outside of climbing to allow for a high level of performance. I manage a sales team in my day job and I tell them the same thing about sales. Part of being good at your job is to manage your energy levels and your life outside of work, so that you can perform when you come in to work. High performance is about bringing all those things into alignment.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Nov 8, 2017 17:52:36 GMT -7
The illness thing is also a pain. I've been sick 3 times this past winter. I spoke to the Doctor about it, and he just said, "Welcome to Melbourne." (I just moved here 6 months ago) - Doctor said that he's worked in a few places but seasonal illness seems to get really bad here. The flip side to that is that I live super close to the Grampians and Arapiles now, and am there every other weekend. I did read a comment somewhere from someone who said they were told as a younger athlete to avoid touching their face – maybe something I should get in the habit of – I touch my face a lot, particularly in frustration at work.
I think I'm relatively lucky in the illness department, especially for a parent of two young snot bags who attend public school. I can't pinpoint why this is, but here are some guesses: - I'm slightly OCD about washing my hands, mostly because I want my finger skin to be goo-free so that it doesn't get soft. - I very rarely drink alcohol. There seems to be a very strong correlation between me drinking and getting cold-like symptoms (if not an actual cold). - I rarely do any intense aerobic exercise (beyond hiking uphill with a moderate weight pack). I used to run or cycle religiously, even through cold/wet winters, and I'd guess I got sick much more often then - I take anti-sick placebos twice daily ("Emegen-C"). I think this stuff really works (which is key to any placebo)
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Post by Chris W on Nov 8, 2017 18:24:54 GMT -7
The illness thing is also a pain. He also noted in that podcast that he thought climbing hard into older age would be a lot harder with children. Do not touch your face. Do not touch your face. Do not touch your face. Most people don't wash their hands long enough to be truly effective. You can carry around a small bottle of hand sanitizer (rubbing alcohol, liquid chalk, etc) and it can really help, especially if you're about to eat food or are in public a lot, like in air ports. If you don't touch your face, the main other way to get sick is from people coughing or breathing on you or in close proximity to you. If I had to travel on a plane often, I'd bring a mask to wear on the plane. People may think you're weird, but at least you'd be weird and healthy. You'd be shocked and appalled at how many sick people I see who "just have to get on that plane". Cold weather does not make you sick. Germs do. Eat well to fuel your body and allow it to recover. Sleep at least 8 hours and let your body recover. Do not touch your face. There's a lot to be said for allowing your body to recover well from intense activity. I'm getting older, and baby #4 is due in two weeks (on Thanksgiving), and I'm still getting better. It's doable. It's probably also worth noting/confessing that I'm moderately germaphobic.
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Post by jrblack on Nov 8, 2017 18:30:43 GMT -7
I take anti-sick placebos twice daily ("Emegen-C"). I think this stuff really works (which is key to any placebo) I laughed so hard at this...
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Post by jetjackson on Nov 8, 2017 22:21:37 GMT -7
- I very rarely drink alcohol. There seems to be a very strong correlation between me drinking and getting cold-like symptoms (if not an actual cold). Yeah, I also drink very little/rarely. Maybe a glass of wine every other week. When I drink now though, my body can't handle it, I sleep poorly, my face gets itchy and hot, and I feel like I drop a letter grade the next day. Now that you mention it, I do also notice a bit of a correlation with getting sick, perhaps that's me kicking my immune system while it's down. Nothing tastes as good as clipping chains feels.
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Post by jrblack on Nov 8, 2017 22:35:58 GMT -7
Nothing tastes as good as clipping chains feels. Reminds me of Kate Moss's infamous quote, "Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels." Probably intentional? I just listened to Neil Gresham's TBP interview where he talks about trying to balance the happiness he gets from eating the foods he likes with the happiness he gets by climbing hard routes. It's interesting... because a lot of us would quaff a Sardine Smoothie 3x a day if it meant we could climb 5.13.
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Post by jetjackson on Nov 8, 2017 22:46:36 GMT -7
Yeah, I did rip that one from Kate Moss.
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Post by RobF on Nov 9, 2017 15:35:41 GMT -7
Based on how ripped Mr Gresham is, I think we can safely say we know how happy he gets from climbing hard routes...
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