|
|
Post by andreas on Jun 18, 2017 13:04:17 GMT -7
Hi together, i am about to finish my second strength cycle following the RPTM and would like to share my progress and maybe get some feedback on what to improve. Further, kind of a reference if the progress is ok would be great. I just would like to get a feeling if i am doing the right thing. First of all the program is amazing and i really enjoy all parts of it. I have been climbing for a long time (5+ years very active) and never really got into systematic training. Since starting last fall i realized how much I enjoy the training is self. Experiencing my fist planned peak this spring was an amazing experience and lead to sending a route which I thought was impossible last year. I was able to push my max red point level during the last 18 months from 13a to 13d. Currently i am training for projecting 14a in the fall and spring 2018.
Due to restrictions in my Condo i cannot use a standard hang board and therefore i use an Awesome Woody (free hanging smaller HB - see LINK). First question would be if anyone has experience with using a free hanging board for a longer period of time and how this effects your joints etc. I noticed that it is harder first but once your shoulders and core get used to the moving it feels good.
My current routing looks like this (7/3/7, with baseline, +10, +20):
1) 3rd Crimp (0.8'', 20mm) half crimp position
2) 3rd Crimp (0.8'' 20mm) 3F open handed
3) MR Pocket (1.1'', 3cm)
4) 4th Crimp (0.6'', 15mm) half crimp position
5) RP Pocket (1.1'' or 3cm)
6) IM Shallow Pocket (1'' or 2.5cm)
In addition I train slopers and pinch using the metolius power grips but this will not be comparable.
The following charts shows the progress i made during the last two cycles. The first cycle was using the intermediate routing and i did 5 workouts. The current one used the advanced routing and i just finished HB8. The data points are always the last set of the grip and i try to at least complete 3/4 7sec hangs before i step up.
I am wondering if the progress for the half open crimp and open crimp is more or less in line with your experience. The stats are:
| Grip | Cycle1 - HB1 | Cycle1 - HB5 | Cycle2 - HB1 | Cycle2 - HB8 | | 3rd Crimp - HC Position | -10lb | 0lb | -5lb | +25lb
| | 3rd Crimp - 3F open | -30lb | -30lb | -25 | 0lb
|
| Pocket - MR | -15lb | -10lb | -10lb 10lb |
|
2ndCycle - Progress1.pdf (49.43 KB)
The total gains since i first started are around 30lb for the important grips. I should add that i lost about 10lb for the performance phase in May and never managed to get them back. During the second cycle I was able to increase the load by about 20lb. Looking at Marc's benchmark in the RCTM I wonder if I my fingers are just slower in adapting to increased load. What are your experiences with added load during the cycle?
Another thing i notice is that the difference between Half Crimp and open handed on the same rung seems to be huge in my case. I can do almost 30lb more with HC. What are your experiences with that and how would you approach this obvious weakness? Keep doing what i do or is there a better way like max hangs or more frequent low intensity training? Especially the endurance on open handed grips is a problem. Sometimes i can complete 2 hangs on the last set and the 3rd is absolutely impossible. This never happens that sudden on the Half Crimp.
I also started playing with mono's but they feel very dangerous. I could probably hand safely with -45lb. Would you recommend starting with it? Outdoor i actually feel pretty good about monos (used to climb a lot in the Frankenjura).
Overall my experience with the program is really good. Some things that I learned along the way:
1) 2 days of rest are much better than 1
2) climbing during the phase is challenging - my finger strength is amazing but the PE is totally crap and there is no flow
3) more than 6 grips lead to a significant decline in performance - i train IM as number 7 and constantly fail - small improvements are still visible
4) more than 4 days between workouts diminish the training effect (seems like that) - i can pretty much exactly do what i did on the previous set
5) people in a general gym look at you like you are crazy when you run around with your harness on and grunt while hanging on your fingertips - funny experience to expose normal gym folk to what we do.
My plan for the next cycle would be to keep hanging with both crimps and the MR. I probably push the IM pocket more to beginning because my project involves a nasty 2finger crimp which is used IM. Please comment on anything you would consider changing - all feedback is highly appreciated.
Regards,
Andreas |
|
|
|
Post by Chris W on Jun 19, 2017 1:49:48 GMT -7
Wow, I think regardless of what your hangboard numbers look like, if you went from 13a to 13d in 18 months then you're doing something right.
|
|
kader
New Member
Posts: 37 
|
Post by kader on Jun 19, 2017 4:20:39 GMT -7
Wow, I think regardless of what your hangboard numbers look like, if you went from 13a to 13d in 18 months then you're doing something right. Yeah actually i'd like to hear more details regarding what you did |
|
|
|
Post by tedwelser on Jun 19, 2017 7:28:45 GMT -7
Hey Andreas-
I am interested in your question about relative strength between half crimp and open. Here are three thoughts on the balance that you observe in your workouts:
(1) your free hanging board might be exaggerating the difference between grips if the half crimp is more stable or more "omni-positional" than your open hand hold. What I mean is that if a grip can be grasped equally well from a number of different positions of wrist, elbow, etc. (like a positive crimp) a moving board will be less of a disadvantage for that grip. In contrast, a sloping edge will have a much smaller sweet spot where it feels usable (relative to the rest of your body), and thus any amount of movement could both make that edge harder to hold, and cause your fingers to shift irreversibly to a less optimum position on the grip (this would manifest especially on longer hangs).
(2) people might just vary in their propensity for excelling at different grips by muscle group utilized
(3) the difference between balance of strength for closed and open grips might be accumulated training imbalances, and therefore overcome to some extent.
If the answer is partly due to #1, then you might be able to address it somewhat with your current board by adapting your protocol for the open hand exercises. For instance, I find that the added stability of the pulley system makes a difference to my sloping hold performance that is not simply due to the weight off, but seems to result from the reduced body motion. (the pulley system dampens any swings or shifts in the body). (-20 on the pulleys with +30 on my harness is easier than -0 pulley with +10 on my harness)
If the answer is partly due to #3 then you might consider how changes in your open hand workouts throughout your season could bring comparable increases to your open hand strength (ARC on open-hand only routes, make some of your PE circuits open hand only, try out some longer duration open hand hangs.
|
|
|
|
Post by srossabi42 on Jun 19, 2017 8:31:11 GMT -7
just to the mono question: i also typically feel good about monos outdoors but havent really trained them yet on the hangboard because it has felt very tweaky when i have attempted them in the past. i started a hangboarding phase this morning, typically i do the intermediate routine, but for the monos (middle finger) i am going to start with 1 set of hangs (7x 7 sec, 3 sec off) at -60 lbs. this first workout didnt feel great, but the middle fingers felt fine on other grips later in the workout. i'll let you know how it goes
fantastic progress by the way!
|
|
|
|
Post by jonfrisby on Jun 19, 2017 9:27:53 GMT -7
I think a lot of people are stronger in half or open due to relative finger length. If you have relatively even-lengthed fingers, you will be stronger half crimped. I am at least 10 pounds per hand stronger in open crimp, and have short index and pinky fingers.
|
|
|
|
Post by MarkAnderson on Jun 19, 2017 14:25:35 GMT -7
There's a lot of interesting stuff to respond to here, but I'm short on time so I'll just focus on the mono question. The best way to go is to start out by removing a lot of weight. This will allow you to make steady progress between workouts while minimizing the risk of injury. I've been training monos for over 10 years, and I still start out at ~ -40 (3rd set). Obviously this depends greatly on the size of the mono you are using, so YMMV.
Training monos is certainly somewhat risky, but I think its more risky to climb on monos without training them. If your climbing never requires the use of challenging monos, it's probably not worth training them, but if you enjoy hard pocket climbing it probably makes sense to train monos, especially at the grades you're climbing. I began training monos for a specific route, and then I just stuck with it, and through the years I've climbed a number of hard things that depended on that strength. I haven't climbed a mono-intensive route in a few years, but its still nice to know I have that ability when I need it.
|
|
|
|
Post by andreas on Jun 20, 2017 3:41:56 GMT -7
Hi Ted, (1) your free hanging board might be exaggerating the difference between grips if the half crimp is more stable or more "omni-positional" than your open hand hold. What I mean is that if a grip can be grasped equally well from a number of different positions of wrist, elbow, etc. (like a positive crimp) a moving board will be less of a disadvantage for that grip. In contrast, a sloping edge will have a much smaller sweet spot where it feels usable (relative to the rest of your body), and thus any amount of movement could both make that edge harder to hold, and cause your fingers to shift irreversibly to a less optimum position on the grip (this would manifest especially on longer hangs). (2) people might just vary in their propensity for excelling at different grips by muscle group utilized (3) the difference between balance of strength for closed and open grips might be accumulated training imbalances, and therefore overcome to some extent. Number 1) is a very interesting observation and this is absolutely true. I just never noticed it. Just finished HB9 and i paid attention and i think it is one reason. When i just slightly put my feet to a step below the hardboard (not taking of weight, just preventing the body from twisting and moving) the hangs get slightly easier. Your third remark probably also plays a role. I used to climb a fair bit on pockets until 2 years ago when i moved to Toronto. I started training systematically here, due to the lack of much outdoor climbing, and most of the climbing here is solid hard crimping. I guess my hc and fc just got so much stronger in this time. If the answer is partly due to #1, then you might be able to address it somewhat with your current board by adapting your protocol for the open hand exercises. For instance, I find that the added stability of the pulley system makes a difference to my sloping hold performance that is not simply due to the weight off, but seems to result from the reduced body motion. (the pulley system dampens any swings or shifts in the body). (-20 on the pulleys with +30 on my harness is easier than -0 pulley with +10 on my harness) Do you think the swinging and active working during the hang would enhance the training effect and would benefit the outcome in the end? I considered if this could be similar to training with an TRC or Rings. Exercises are less stable which makes your smaller muscles work harder and makes you overall stronger in the long run. But I am not sure if this holds for finger strength as these are already small muscles and i do not know how much stability this develops. The hands feel fairly stable and i do not have the impression I am overloading while working against the movement. If the answer is partly due to #3 then you might consider how changes in your open hand workouts throughout your season could bring comparable increases to your open hand strength (ARC on open-hand only routes, make some of your PE circuits open hand only, try out some longer duration open hand hangs. This is a good advice - i will try that. I considered also keeping some kind of open handed HB routine during my PE cycle. Maybe 2 sets of DH. My experience with this is unfortunately that the PE afterwards is much harder and that doing it after PE does result in poor performance. My guess is that this would not lead to a big enough stimulus because the muscles are already tired. I will try ARCing and set a PE problem. A sidenote on that which might be interesting. I also noticed during my campus sessions that my contact strength on 3 fingers seems to be fine. Once in while I do not hit the rung as half crimp (when getting tired) and only reach them with 3 fingers open. In general i have no problem sticking it that way - although matching or moving is almost impossible. |
|
|
|
Post by andreas on Jun 20, 2017 3:45:13 GMT -7
I think a lot of people are stronger in half or open due to relative finger length. If you have relatively even-lengthed fingers, you will be stronger half crimped. I am at least 10 pounds per hand stronger in open crimp, and have short index and pinky fingers. That is interesting. When I looked at my girlfriend, which has short and pretty even leather finger, her fingers are all pretty much extended when she used a rung open handed. My middle finger is way longer than the other two and in order to get index and ring on the rung i have to bend the middle finger. This felt really weird in the beginning but i get used to it. Still this feels like one of the reasons why i might see the big difference. |
|
|
|
Post by andreas on Jun 20, 2017 3:47:06 GMT -7
There's a lot of interesting stuff to respond to here, but I'm short on time so I'll just focus on the mono question. The best way to go is to start out by removing a lot of weight. This will allow you to make steady progress between workouts while minimizing the risk of injury. I've been training monos for over 10 years, and I still start out at ~ -40 (3rd set). Obviously this depends greatly on the size of the mono you are using, so YMMV. Training monos is certainly somewhat risky, but I think its more risky to climb on monos without training them. If your climbing never requires the use of challenging monos, it's probably not worth training them, but if you enjoy hard pocket climbing it probably makes sense to train monos, especially at the grades you're climbing. I began training monos for a specific route, and then I just stuck with it, and through the years I've climbed a number of hard things that depended on that strength. I haven't climbed a mono-intensive route in a few years, but its still nice to know I have that ability when I need it. Mark, would you sold me on the mono. Would you start doing it as an 'extra' set at the end of the workout with a lot weight or rather do it as the first set? |
|
|
|
Post by andreas on Jun 20, 2017 3:56:46 GMT -7
I just finished HB9 for this cycle and I will move on to Power tomorrow. I plateau on almost every grip and see negative progress on MR and the small crimp.
After reading all your comments I consider changing a few things for the next cycle - few more questions to come (i am sorry)
1) when do you stop training a certain grip? I consider removing the 20mm Half Crimp as i can add 25lb and stick with the 15mm half crimp instead
2) move sloper to the end of the routine - this grip seems to tire me out a lot, the sets afterwards feel not good anymore but i can still do a lot at the end of the set
3) remove sloper completely and only stick with the pinch - seems to train both, sloper and pinch strength
4) incorporate IM and mono M
Overall this was an amazing cycle but i feel a bit burned out and need to do something different.
|
|
|
|
Post by MarkAnderson on Jun 20, 2017 7:24:57 GMT -7
My grip order is:
Large Edge (warmup)
MR
Closed Crimp
Mono
Open edge
IM
Pinch
You definitely want to do tweaky grips somewhere in the middle, when you're fully warmed up but not overly fatigued.
|
|
|
|
Post by andreas on Jun 21, 2017 16:15:39 GMT -7
Wow, I think regardless of what your hangboard numbers look like, if you went from 13a to 13d in 18 months then you're doing something right. Yeah actually i'd like to hear more details regarding what you did The main thing was that i moved from Germany (Munich) to Canada (Toronto). This changed the way I go climbing a bit. The climbing in Ontario is not as plenty but there are some really awesome crags within a weekend distance. This was the reason why i decided to start working routes instead of trying to climb as much different routes as possible. The second big change was the shorter season and less distractions from skiing, hiking, alpine climbing. This gave me the ease of mind to focus on training between november and march. After trying most of the cliffs around i settled on a super inspiring line at a crag close by and made the decision to 100% commit on it. This was last november. I was honestly not sure if i could climb it - could not do any of the three cruxes on the route and barley climb the easy sections in between. However, as there is not much more climbing in the 13b range i was able to just focus anything on this on route. I basically trained two cycles with specific holds and boulder problems. My HB routine was focused on crimps and the limit / pe problems mostly simulated the there crux sections. In combination with losing 10lb and timing my peak to the start of the season and being lucky to get one awesome day i got it. I also realized that climbing on the route no matter if is to cold or the holds are wet helps. A lot people tend to stay at home with mediocre conditions. I used them as pure training sessions and this helped me to basically sent on the first day with really good conditions. |
|
|
|
Post by tedwelser on Jun 25, 2017 14:44:32 GMT -7
Hi Ted, (1) your free hanging board might be exaggerating the difference between grips if the half crimp is more stable or more "omni-positional" than your open hand hold. What I mean is that if a grip can be grasped equally well from a number of different positions of wrist, elbow, etc. (like a positive crimp) a moving board will be less of a disadvantage for that grip. In contrast, a sloping edge will have a much smaller sweet spot where it feels usable (relative to the rest of your body), and thus any amount of movement could both make that edge harder to hold, and cause your fingers to shift irreversibly to a less optimum position on the grip (this would manifest especially on longer hangs). (2) people might just vary in their propensity for excelling at different grips by muscle group utilized (3) the difference between balance of strength for closed and open grips might be accumulated training imbalances, and therefore overcome to some extent. Number 1) is a very interesting observation and this is absolutely true. I just never noticed it. Just finished HB9 and i paid attention and i think it is one reason. When i just slightly put my feet to a step below the hardboard (not taking of weight, just preventing the body from twisting and moving) the hangs get slightly easier. Your third remark probably also plays a role. I used to climb a fair bit on pockets until 2 years ago when i moved to Toronto. I started training systematically here, due to the lack of much outdoor climbing, and most of the climbing here is solid hard crimping. I guess my hc and fc just got so much stronger in this time. Hey Andreas- There are probably many stabilizing benefits of the free hanging board, so I would not want to argue against it. I think though that relying on it for your open hand workout is a bit like trying to train slopers in humid conditions. You will not get your best workouts in and will not be loading your muscles with the levels of intensity necessary for inspiring your best progress. The crimpier grips will suffer less from the stability problem, and thus might lead to extended asymmetry between the grips. In the end the asymmetry might not matter, instead, what is really important is that you are enjoying your climbing and training and making progress towards routes that are motivating you. On the other hand, you might be able to boost your open hand strength in the ways you mention above, and basically get extra progress for free because you will be addressing your relatively less developed grips. I wonder if the board you use might be especially helpful for preparing for limestone routes with holds that really demand that you hold onto them hard. So that seems good for your local areas. In contrast, a stable board might help prepare climbers for hanging from the grips in a way that take advantage of the friction and geometry more. These seem to be attributes that are traded off between different climbing areas and route types (if you are heading for southern sandstone, perhaps the open hand training will really pay off). :-) |
|
