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Post by erick on Mar 19, 2017 20:21:15 GMT -7
I have not been climbing since Dec 18th because of a foot injury in Bishop. Not only was my foot messed up but I got a nasty case of shoulder impingement at the same time. I am just now recovered enough to start hang training again but my foot will still not allow me to climb till the end of April so I figured now would be a good time to do a long season of dedicated hangboard training. Once I am well enough to climb again I plan to start another standard Rock Prodigy training cycle since this system has worked so well for me. I have 2 years of experience doing repeaters and I am still seeing gains with the advanced HB protocol. BUT...since I am not currently in a training schedule I wanted to play with a different HB protocol. After reading the new version of "Training For Climbing" I got really excited to try Mr. Horst's 7-53 protocol. You can read about it here trainingforclimbing.com/4-fingerboard-strength-protocols-that-work/I have now done 5 HB sessions with this protocol. I am using three grips 1)Fully Open (two sets), 2)Half Crimp (two sets), 3)2F Pocket (1 Set) so 5 total sets. I plan to keep doing this protocol till I am able to climb again then I will jump into a base fitness phase and during the strength phase will use the Anderson advanced repeaters to test how my fitness has changed. So far these are my thoughts on this protocol... What I like, 1. Very time effective, I can get through 5 sets in 35 minutes whereas a full 6 grip set of repeaters takes me much longer to get through. 2. Very easy to follow, I am still trying to dial in the weight but I thing I am pretty close right now. I ave emailed Mr. Horst about this but I think you keep the same weight for each hang of the same grip which makes things easy since you don't have tons of different weights of for each grip. 3. NO PUMP as advertised. I am working very hard and my heart get pumping really hard but your not hanging long enough to develop a pump. What I'm not sure about 1.After an advanced set of repeaters my fingers feel WORKED! I just got done with a 7-53 HB workout tonight after only 1 day of rest and my fingers feel like I did nothing. So from my perspective I am not digging enough of a hole for real gains, BUT... we will see how strong my fingers are once get back to the Anderson protocol 2. Still have a timed rest between hangs. The argument for MAX hangs is that if you are timing your rest you have moved out of the strength system and into the endurance system. Having a 53 second rest between hangs seems enough for me to recover but not compared to Eva Lopez style hangs 3. Only three grips, If I wanted I could do 5 grips with one set each. Mr. Horst says to do NO MORE than 5 total sets, and I already feel like I'm not digging a deep enough hole so I don't want to add grips and reduce sets per grip. Once I get done with this phase and am back to repeaters Ill report back. Let me know if you have any questions or things your curious about with this protocol. Eric |
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Post by scojo on Mar 19, 2017 21:50:20 GMT -7
Curious to hear about your conclusions!
I have some thoughts on your "what I'm not sure about" points:
On 1:
It's certainly a lot less volume than the advanced repeaters protocol, so it's expected you don't feel as tired. How many days/week does Horst recommend doing these? Does he recommend doing them on top of other climbing training? I tend to prefer training more frequently, but with less volume each training bout (seems to be counter to the RCTM strategy). I feel like this lets me get more higher quality training in, whereas a super long sessions I would get some high quality training and some lower quality training as I get tired.
2. When I first read about the 7-53 protocol, it sounded like a middle ground between repeaters and max hangs (on the endurance/strength endurance/strength spectrum). I've had success from both repeaters and max hangs, so I'm curious how the 7-53 protocol works out for you and how it compares to doing max hangs+repeaters.
3. I like having fewer grip positions. I've found that it's hard to improve on all the grips at once; it's easier for me to just focus on a few. I think the basic grips (eg. open crimp, half crimp, full crimp) do a good jump of covering all the grip types, unless you're training for something really specific.
ScoJo
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Post by Jon on Mar 20, 2017 8:17:12 GMT -7
I have been using a very similar protocol for the last year. I am doing 10-50's twice per week after an hour of bouldering during strength/power focused phases. I do four grips, two per day. Half crimp and 2 finger open on one day. 3 finger open and pinch block the other day. I have seen pretty good results in gaining strength and avoiding injury.
In regard to that "WORKED" feeling, most strength coaches are starting to advise against that type of training except for when you are training power endurance. I believe studies have started to emerge, but if not, there is at least some anecdotal evidence that athletes should only train to be "WORKED" for short periods of their overall training plan. You get better strength gains by going heavier but shorter in duration and you get better overall endurance by training under that very fatiguing mid-level phase.
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Post by Charlie S on Mar 20, 2017 15:15:31 GMT -7
I also just finished reading Horst's book. I was more interested in the energy systems research. Didn't really feel like the level of detail I wanted was in there. Anyway...
Overall, I think Horst's book is targeted towards the "average" climber with an "average" schedule for "average" aspirations. This is shown in his priorities: 1-Mental/Balance, 2-Stability, 3-Strength. The amount of detail focused on mental and stability is almost 75% of the book. Climbers can benefit from these things, but they won't make you STRONGER.
I look at Max Hangs the way I look at 1-rep maxes for bench pressing. If I try to bench press my 1-rep max every time, I will not progress. I actually regress, and lose endurance in the process. If I "pyramid" and work my way up, I am building strength and it helps my endurance. I'll try a 1-rep max maybe once a month to see if there's progress. Repeaters are kind of like a pyramid. (FWIW, I just switched to the advanced hangboard protocol, and am maxing impressive strength gains!)
The Rock Prodigy Method is for "average" climbers with "average" schedules with "extraordinary" aspirations. I'm not content to sit at Horst's proposed "5.12 average". Yeah, there's genetic potential, but I think that boundary is really far out there. My goal is 5.13 trad. And I know once I get that, I'm only gonna want more.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Mar 20, 2017 16:59:44 GMT -7
I also just finished reading Horst's book. I was more interested in the energy systems research. Didn't really feel like the level of detail I wanted was in there. Anyway... Overall, I think Horst's book is targeted towards the "average" climber with an "average" schedule for "average" aspirations. This is shown in his priorities: 1-Mental/Balance, 2-Stability, 3-Strength. The amount of detail focused on mental and stability is almost 75% of the book. Climbers can benefit from these things, but they won't make you STRONGER. I look at Max Hangs the way I look at 1-rep maxes for bench pressing. If I try to bench press my 1-rep max every time, I will not progress. I actually regress, and lose endurance in the process. If I "pyramid" and work my way up, I am building strength and it helps my endurance. I'll try a 1-rep max maybe once a month to see if there's progress. Repeaters are kind of like a pyramid. (FWIW, I just switched to the advanced hangboard protocol, and am maxing impressive strength gains!) The Rock Prodigy Method is for "average" climbers with "average" schedules with "extraordinary" aspirations. I'm not content to sit at Horst's proposed "5.12 average". Yeah, there's genetic potential, but I think that boundary is really far out there. My goal is 5.13 trad. And I know once I get that, I'm only gonna want more. I wish there was a way I could double-like this! |
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Post by erick on Mar 20, 2017 17:32:21 GMT -7
Charlie
Those are pretty much my thoughts on his book as well. Good enough but not nearly as useful as "The Manual". I've been really happy with advanced repeaters and plan to go back to them. If I was not in a current training cycle I would not "risk" doing something different but this is a good time for me to test an alternative.
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Post by daustin on Mar 20, 2017 18:26:33 GMT -7
I also just finished reading Horst's book. I was more interested in the energy systems research. Didn't really feel like the level of detail I wanted was in there. Anyway... Overall, I think Horst's book is targeted towards the "average" climber with an "average" schedule for "average" aspirations. This is shown in his priorities: 1-Mental/Balance, 2-Stability, 3-Strength. The amount of detail focused on mental and stability is almost 75% of the book. Climbers can benefit from these things, but they won't make you STRONGER. I look at Max Hangs the way I look at 1-rep maxes for bench pressing. If I try to bench press my 1-rep max every time, I will not progress. I actually regress, and lose endurance in the process. If I "pyramid" and work my way up, I am building strength and it helps my endurance. I'll try a 1-rep max maybe once a month to see if there's progress. Repeaters are kind of like a pyramid. (FWIW, I just switched to the advanced hangboard protocol, and am maxing impressive strength gains!) The Rock Prodigy Method is for "average" climbers with "average" schedules with "extraordinary" aspirations. I'm not content to sit at Horst's proposed "5.12 average". Yeah, there's genetic potential, but I think that boundary is really far out there. My goal is 5.13 trad. And I know once I get that, I'm only gonna want more. Great post and totally agree overall. Just a minor quibble -- I don't think the common max hangs protocol is analogous to a 1RM. Even though you're only doing one hang, the duration is "equivalent" to multiple reps. I.e. a true 1RM would be a 2" hang, so a 10" hang is more like 5 reps. Of course this is all pretty fuzzy, but I think the point is that max hangs are trying to target similar duration and intensity shchemes as common weightlifting recruitment routines ala 5x5. IMO repeaters and max hangs each have their place, and shouldn't be seen as interchangeable or fit for the same purpose. |
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Post by Charlie S on Mar 20, 2017 19:28:34 GMT -7
If I was not in a current training cycle I would not "risk" doing something different but this is a good time for me to test an alternative. Fair enough! And I agree, this is a great time to test. I will be very interested in your results. |
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Post by Jon on Mar 21, 2017 12:15:10 GMT -7
I want to second what Daustin had to say. I think proper max hang protocols are not equivalent to 1RM lifting. Proper max hangs are 3 to 9 hangs per grip, whether you are doing them with unlimited rests or on a 7-53 duty cycle as Horst suggests. Max hangs would be more in line with power lifting protocols of 2-5 reps @ 3-5 sets based upon TUT and multiple sets. Repeaters are more in line with hypertrophy work.
I think there are benefits to both repeaters and max hangs and I personally mix them up in different phases. In order to keep getting better, you have to change the stimuli. You can do that via weight added or edge size, but you can also do it by changing up the plan.
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