Drop sets and the VDER: forearm hypertrophy or junk miles?

[tedwelser]

Fred Nicole demonstrates the dangers of forearm hypertrophy . . .

Last week it occurred to me that you could use the variable depth edge rail on the RPTC to perform a version of a drop set workout. Drop sets or stripping sets involve immediately repeating an exercise with slightly lower resistance several times, culminating with failure at a much lower resistance but a feeling of great intensity / difficulty.

I experimented with this type of workout for hangboarding at the end of my workout by hanging from the smallest part of the small VDER that I could manage till near failure (~6 seconds) then I moved inward one finger width and immediately hung till near failure again. I repeated all the way in to the center, resumed on the large SVDR until, at the end, I was failing from the largest part of the large VDER. That effort combined a feeling of max effort with confronting the limits of suffering that one could withstand.

I found a decent description of drop sets related to bodybuilding:
www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dropsets.htm

I knew them as "stripping sets" since reading Arnold's Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding as a kid. [lol-- thankfully I did not quite end up as a musclebound monster] Anyways, I did remember that when doing dropsets I would experience a sensation of a good but intense deep down muscle soreness afterwards. Also, when doing these I tend to get a combination of pumped and max effort muscle failure.

I put this together with the insights that (A) finger/forearm strength is a personal climbing weakness (B) certain prominent high finger-strength climbers have large forearms and (C) it might be safer for tendons to push limits of muscular failure on loads that are far from ones actual limit.

All that being said I have no idea if these are actually a sufficiently beneficial use of training time. The claims in the linked article are anecdotal assertions from a body building perspective. However, a lot of time all we have is a collection of anecdotes and a willingness to try.

The premise that they are high intensity workouts seems undeniable. If a set goes well I finish with an amazingly intense feeling of forearm/finger failure under a load that feels like it ought to be easy. Afterwards I get what might be described as a deep muscular burn (in a good way).

Obviously you could also do drop sets from a single grip if you could rapidly lower your added weight in increments. The article mentions several flavors of drop set patterns some of which could be used with a hang board and weights.

Thoughts?

[aikibujin]

Reading that article you linked, this paragraph stood out to me the most:


WHY DO BODYBUILDERS LOVE DROP SETS?
Bodybuilders are unique among athletes because they're concerned purely with cosmetic improvements and not athletic performance. That's why bodybuilders prefer drop sets - because they're decidedly geared towards increasing muscle size (hypertrophy). By contrast, you don't see a lot of football players, sprinters or other athletes using drop sets, because drop sets are not conducive to strength, power or speed gains. In fact, most athletes want strength and power without bulk, so drop sets are usually nixed. However, if pure mass is what you're after, then drop sets are ideal!

[MarkAnderson]

Interesting post Ted, you're definitely a true innovator!

I also noticed the paragraph Boer quoted. But, there are a few other questionable statements in that article (ex: implying that drop sets maximize recruitment), so I would take everything in there with a grain of salt. However, just because one random article is "loosely" written doesn't mean drop sets are necessarily bad.

Obviously I'm a huge fan of forearm hypertrophy. The primary reason I find the Max Hangs fad so bewildering is that they clearly neglect any attempt at hypertrophy.  Neglecting forearm hypertrophy seems like an enormous oversight for anyone hoping for long-term improvement. It's well documented that high metabolic stress is a key ingredient of hypertrophy.  I tried to emphasize this in Ch 6, but my impression is that we didn't effectively drive the point home.

Anyway, drop sets are one way to achieve high metabolic stress.  But so is ARCing, and we don't expect ARCing to cause much (useful) hypertrophy, because the intensity is too low.  My concern would be that drop sets over-emphasize metabolic stress at the expense of intensity (point of order: when I say "intensity", I mean % of max effort, not "volume", which I define as the product of "intensity" and "duration". Example: a marathon is high duration and high volume, you feel really tired and sore afterwards, but its not high intensity. Neither would drop sets be high "intensity" by my definition; they would be high "volume").  Therefore Id' guess drop sets are more likely to favor sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (if that's a real thing, or if not, whatever it is that explains the strength differences between power lifters and bodybuilders).

So, I think you're on the right track in pursuing high metabolic stress in your hangboarding, but its possible that drop sets are taking it a bit too far for those seeking hypertrophy as a means to long-term strength rather than hypertrophy as an end in itself.  But there's only one way to find out (if you decide to try this for a while, please measure your forearm girth periodically).

Jan 26, 2017 14:11:16 GMT -7 tedwelser said:

...a lot of time all we have is a collection of anecdotes and a willingness to try....

...and this is ALWAYS the case for climbers. Don't be fooled by the fluff so frequently cited as gospel on MP.

[tedwelser]

Jan 26, 2017 19:44:00 GMT -7 MarkAnderson said:

Interesting post Ted, you're definitely a true innovator!

I also noticed the paragraph Boer quoted. But, there are a few other questionable statements in that article (ex: implying that drop sets maximize recruitment), so I would take everything in there with a grain of salt. However, just because one random article is "loosely" written doesn't mean drop sets are necessarily bad.

Hey Boer and Mark- 

Thanks for your thoughtful replies!  I too was a bit worried about the size before strength problem.  I am certainly curious both if the workout would result in hypertrophy and if that hypertrophy would be of the helpful sort.  Even having the info to test if it is effective would take some serious effort in terms of the workout, consistency, and documentation.   I am still not convinced that it would be worth it for me to try, but I do wonder.  

Mark I think you are right to wonder if or to what extent the workout would count as high intensity given that it would seem to share more in common with an endurance activity than a high intensity strength activity.   Though I wonder if it were structured right if it would be best understood as something that starts as high intensity and transitions to  a strength endurance activity.  Here is why I think that: 

Start with both a general warm up and a grip specific warm up [using the grip you use on the smallest part of the VDER (i.e. the semi crimp / chisel grip / semi open grip)]. Now, if you were to choose your max weight from your third set in the advanced workout then that weight would be too easy for the first rep of the drop set because you would not be failing or nearly failing in 6 seconds, you could likely hold a single rep of that weight for 10-14 seconds if you are doing 5 reps of 7 seconds on it.  So, instead you would likely need to start with a slightly higher intensity than that.   So, you find whatever your higher intensity weight is, and you hang it nearly to the point of failure at 6 seconds, then you immediately hang the same weight, but with a slight mechanical advantage, but once again you nearly fail.  I would guess that if you moved in slowly enough to keep nearly failing in 4-6 seconds that you would have at least 3-4 reps of high intensity.  And then it sort of transitions to something like the PE workout where you keep grabbing grips that you can just barely keep using because they keep getting slightly better, but because of cumulative fatigue you keep nearing the point of failure.  

If you were to compare this workout to running-- it sounds more like running HIIT's without sufficient time to recover.  Intervals with no real rest, but with a slightly easier task each successive sprint, while still trying to max speed in the sprint.   The other reason I think pure endurance is a bad comparison is that the TUT of a set of 10 6 second reps in a drop set is just 60 seconds, which, is pretty far from marathon territory, more like mid distance.   

The final thing I wonder about, is at the micro level, what happens to the muscle fibers that became over fatigued in the first 3 sets reps.  What do they *do* if anything during the subsequent reps?    This is, I think what the article means by recruitment.  If their energy systems are failed and they cannot contribute (much or at all?) to the contraction then other fibers must be contributing more-- otherwise the contraction would be impossible, and if some fibers have failed then others must not have been fully utilized if you continue to perform contractions.  The article says something about different fiber types contributing, but whether that is true or not seems to matter less than the idea that some of the fibers that were key in the early reps must have become too fatigued to fully contribute in the later reps.  Or, every rep might be using all fibers equally and they are just all delivering partially to the contraction, offering less and less strength each time?  This seems unlikely?

I dunno.  

I suppose I could give it a try.  If I do, I think I will go Archimedes style and use water displacement to measure the volume of my forearms up to my elbows.   And by pre soaking in cold water I think I could get a consistent low pump condition to measure and not have to arbitrarily decide on what part of the forearm to measure.  If the water displaced into a container I would weight the water in grams to learn the cc's displaced.  lol.   

[daustin]

I have nothing to add but just want to say I love this thread.

[aikibujin]

Jan 26, 2017 21:46:53 GMT -7 tedwelser said:

The final thing I wonder about, is at the micro level, what happens to the muscle fibers that became over fatigued in the first 3 sets reps.  What do they *do* if anything during the subsequent reps?    This is, I think what the article means by recruitment.  If their energy systems are failed and they cannot contribute (much or at all?) to the contraction then other fibers must be contributing more-- otherwise the contraction would be impossible, and if some fibers have failed then others must not have been fully utilized if you continue to perform contractions.  The article says something about different fiber types contributing, but whether that is true or not seems to matter less than the idea that some of the fibers that were key in the early reps must have become too fatigued to fully contribute in the later reps.  Or, every rep might be using all fibers equally and they are just all delivering partially to the contraction, offering less and less strength each time?  This seems unlikely?

You brought up some very interesting things, maybe it is worth experimenting a little with this. I don't pretend to know how muscle work at all, so all this talk on what's happening on the micro level is beyond me. But one thought did occur to me: on the macro level, if a muscle is already fatigued, by asking the same muscle to perform with less and less weight, is it possible that we are pushing it too hard and overstressing it? Of course, it's all speculation on my part.

[kader]

Sorry to jump in but aren't heavy finger rolls (described by eric horst) the best exercice for forearm hypertrophy?

[tedwelser]

Jan 28, 2017 7:44:39 GMT -7 aikibujin said:

Jan 26, 2017 21:46:53 GMT -7 tedwelser said:

The final thing I wonder about, is at the micro level, what happens to the muscle fibers that became over fatigued in the first 3 sets reps.  What do they *do* if anything during the subsequent reps?    This is, I think what the article means by recruitment.  If their energy systems are failed and they cannot contribute (much or at all?) to the contraction then other fibers must be contributing more-- otherwise the contraction would be impossible, and if some fibers have failed then others must not have been fully utilized if you continue to perform contractions.  The article says something about different fiber types contributing, but whether that is true or not seems to matter less than the idea that some of the fibers that were key in the early reps must have become too fatigued to fully contribute in the later reps.  Or, every rep might be using all fibers equally and they are just all delivering partially to the contraction, offering less and less strength each time?  This seems unlikely?

You brought up some very interesting things, maybe it is worth experimenting a little with this. I don't pretend to know how muscle work at all, so all this talk on what's happening on the micro level is beyond me. But one thought did occur to me: on the macro level, if a muscle is already fatigued, by asking the same muscle to perform with less and less weight, is it possible that we are pushing it too hard and overstressing it? Of course, it's all speculation on my part.

I think it might be worth experimenting as well. So I decided to try a drop set workout today. I also measured my forearms with a tailors measuring tape but have not yet tried the water displacement strategy. I will try that tomorrow to get a "pre" measurement for the cycle. I am super tired right now so I will try to describe it as best I can on my limited energy.



Warm up with light weight hangs on different edges, shoulder rotations, a few push ups, start some inspiring music.

Two short warm up sets of repeaters. Throughout I did a repeater standard 3-4 min rest between sets (which apparently is not enough rest after a few dropsets).
0. Repeaters. Warm up on large open edge Forge; +40 lbs. 3X12 seconds with 3 second rests.
0. Repeaters. Semi crimp, forge, innermost part. +0 lbs. 3X12 seconds with 3 second rests



Dropsets:

1. Forge VDER. +0 lbs. 6 reps, ~6seconds each, start wide, increment each hang inwards to largest section.
2. RPTC. +20 lbs. 6X6sec reps bottom row, 4X6sec reps upper, then 2X2secs (lol).
3. RPTC. +40 lbs. 3X6 bottom row, 3X5 top row, 2X2 (lol)
4. RPTC. +40 lbs. 3X6 bottom row, 4X5 top row, 2X2

Pinch dropsets (experiment)

1. RPTC pinch. 6X6, deteriorating to 2X2? while edging higher and over the lip on the pinch as needed.
2. Forge pinch (medium). 6X6 deteriorating to 2X2 while edging higher on the pinch (over the lip)

Final edge dropsets completely fell apart due to cumulative fatigue.
1. RPTC +20 lbs. 3X6 bottom, then just failed to hang for more than a second or two all the way across the top.
2. RPTC +0 lbs. 3X6 on bottom, then again, just failed out of the top. crazy tired.
3. RPTC +0 and -? (with feet on holds) 1 lower hang, then 6X6 second hangs across the top, with surprisingly much weight on feet while pumping out holding onto good edges. lol

The very last set was good-- I felt very tired but I was determined to get decent TUT despite the fact that I had to take away a lot of weight.

5 hours later I can say that I feel some forearm fatigue-- similar to after a good day of outdoor climbing but more localized. If I flex and press on the muscle the most sore section is down the center of the palm side, focused on the middle 50% between the wrist and elbow.

*********************

Next day reflections.

Forearms are more sore this morning, but in a good way. Some finger and elbow aches, though elbows were not much bothered by this and fingers feel better than they normally do after a day of bouldering.

I am happy with how the workout went but I am far from happy with the design-- I am just starting to figure out what might make a good set of starting weights, #reps per set, and rest periods between sets. Also, I would like to identify the most basic grip set. The semi crimp seems like the most fundamental, after which I think some type of half crimp would be good, and then a pinch. But I did not want to include the half crimp in case it would bother my elbows.

Questions I have:

What should the goal of the exercise set be?
Is it to create the most extensively complete metabolic stress across the widest cross section of fibers in the loaded muscle? (I am guessing this would be good?)
Or the highest peak of metabolic stress?
That question starts from the premise that metabolic stress unequally distributed within the muscle, but is this the case?
Do we want to optimize the extent or the intensity of this stress? (extent higher priority?)
Is cumulative fatigue a benefit to this training (meaning we get to target intensities for the muscles earlier or easier), or is it a detriment that prevents us from reestablishing the same level of metabolic stress? I am guessing the second?

Workout options:
How intense should the first hang be?
What is the right amount of rest between reps? (I was minimizing this to about 1 second)
What is the right size of difficulty drop between reps?
Do you want to vary the above?
If so, according to what criteria?
How many sets, and how many workouts per day are optimal?
What role does pre-fatigue of muscles play in spurring adaptations to spur more muscle growth?

On the last question I am considering models from manual labor where the worker puts in a full 8 hour day, and thus is probably repeating a “workout” many times during the day and doing work while already partly tired. Is this junk-- or is this part of how the body gets the signal that more muscle is needed?

Overall-- is the goal to create several instances where the body creates signals to the response system that it has reached high metabolic stress levels that are both extensive and intense and that the only prescription is more cow bell? (or muscle tissue)

Should the sets and workouts be, within a day, designed to maximize the extent of the metabolic stress, within each set, and across those sets? If so, this might imply that the climber warm ups, seeks the most intense versions of the drop sets, and then after some rest, revisits them at lower weights, but with the goal to make the muscles obtain the same intense “roasted” feeling of being both feeling of being tired and worked at the same time.

Final thought-- Arnold mentioned that after the conclusion of the dropset you should focus your attention on the muscles that you had just exhausted and flex them and try to isometrically work them to inspire even greater exhaustion. Whether that has any benefit or not it is interesting that after a good drop set you can really feel the particular muscles that were most engaged.

hey Kader--   that is a really good point, and that might be correct.  What I was wondering was if there is an important difference between hypertrophy in the forearms generally and hypertrophy for the specific muscles used on particular climbing grips.  Folks who train grip training as a weightlifting exercise can have big forearms generally but perhaps not in the ways that are most adaptive for climbing?

   

[MarkAnderson]

Jan 28, 2017 21:12:53 GMT -7 kader said:

Sorry to jump in but aren't heavy finger rolls (described by eric horst) the best exercice for forearm hypertrophy?

I've never seen any evidence to back that up, but then I've never heard that claim either.  Do you remember where you heard that?  Has anyone else seen any evidence to that effect?  I spent a fair bit of time experimenting with HFRs many years ago and found them to be a complete waste of time for me.

[MarkAnderson]

Ted,

There's a lot to respond to so try to bare with me.

-Regarding your 26 Jan post, I wasn't intending to imply that drop sets = marathon. I was just trying to clarify my definition of the word "intensity" so that we could have a common frame of reference for our discussion.

-Also from the same post, about "recruitment", any exercise we describe as a "recruitment" exercise is intended to produce high recruitment. What you/the article are describing is the opposite of that: training the body NOT to recruit fibers for early sets/reps so that the muscles will have some fresh fibers waiting around for later sets/reps. So if Drop Sets are doing this, then they are the opposite of a recruitment exercise. Instead they are training the muscles to resist fatigue by recruiting as little as possible.

On to yesterday's post:

-It seems the goal of the exercise is to spur hypertrophy in a manner that will result in strength gains over the long-term. That should help answer all your other questions. If we assume that there is such a thing as Sarcomere or Functional Hyp, and there is such a thing as Sarcoplasmic or Non-Functional Hyp, and we assume that fewer sets/reps of higher intensity tends to cause the former, and vice versa, then you should want to keep the workout as intense as possible (while still achieving whatever the minimal necessary amount of metabolic stress is). If we knew the minimal necessary amount of metabolic stress we could bottle it, sell it, and live on yachts cruising between stalactite covered Greek islands.

Still, there are some things we know, like running 10 miles/day causes lots of metabolic stress but doesn't help you squat more weight. I think its something you'll have to do by feel at first. If the post-workout feeling is like post-ARCing, then its likely not intense-enough. If it feels like post-campus, its probably too intense (that is, too much rest between sets and/or not enough sets). If I were on this quest I would search around some body-building and power-lifting sites and look for some recommendations on # of sets, # of reps, and (perhaps rather important) rest between sets.

-Do you want to vary? No. Not because its wrong, but because you're conducting an experiment and the less variables you have to isolate the better.

-Manual labor: Correct me if I'm way off-base here, but I can't remember seeing too many manual laborers who looked jacked like Schwarzenegger. It seems like the best approach to looking jacked is to do what jacked people do, which is mostly sit around doing nothing, except for periodically lifting a shitton of weights according to a well-thought-out schedule, and then resting thoroughly in between. 8 Hours a day of (relatively) low intensity drudgery only seems to work in the movies. That said, I've known auto mechanics who could crush my hand into pulp during a handshake if they wanted to.

[climber511]

In a very general sense – TUT (time under tension) is one of the best ways to make “growth” happen. Again in a very general sense resistance levels somewhere close to 80% of 1 rep max weights are best for this purpose. A so called “light pump” or one done with low weight and higher time periods do not work as well for this purpose as do weights heavy enough only a moderate number of reps can be done. The best workout I have done in the past was called Power Forearms and was put out by Health for Life a few decades ago.

This program is done non stop, no rest is allowed between sets or movements.
· Wrist twists with pipes – arms straight – a warm up
· Wrist twists with pipes – arms bent – a warm up
· Wrist Curls – 6 reps
· Reverse wrist curls – 8 reps
· Wrist Curls – 6 reps
· Reverse wrist curls – 8 reps
· Behind the back Wrist Curls – 6 reps
· Reverse curls – 8 reps
· Behind the back Wrist Curls - 6 reps
· Reverse curls - 8 reps
· SED Wrist Abductions - 8 reps
· SED Wrist Adductions - 8 reps
· SED Wrist Supination and Pronation - 8 reps (rotations)
Notes: Wrist twists with pipe are a simple warm up exercise. SED means single ended dumbbell or what we call lever work (can be done with a sledge hammer). Done to the front, rear; then lay your arm on a bench and do lever twist or rotational work.
No more than three times a week – two is better.
Level II
· Wrist twists with pipe
· Wrist Curls – 8 reps
· Reverse Wrist Curls – 8 reps - do 4 super sets
· Behind the back wrist curls – 8 reps
· Reverse Curls – 8 reps - do 4 super sets
· SED Abductions – 8 reps
· SED Adductions – 8 reps
· SED Wrist Twists – 8 reps
In Level 1 the reps were 6 on the Wrist Curls and Behind the Back wrist curls – 8 on the rest.
You should use a weight that keeps you at the edge of failure at the end of each set. This thing is “Hard” – if you use the right weights. Value for climbing? Completely unknown but for size gains – it does work.
The “pump” does feel different than you get climbing though.

I used to do “Finger Curls” on alternate days. I tried to go as heavy as possible on the finger curls. Use a Power Rack set just below fingertip level and a “curl” grip – this allows you to cheat by rolling the bar up your thighs for some help and lowering it negatively for additional reps. I think they were a great exercise for climbing back when Todd was talking about them and very few hang boards - system boards etc were being used. As good as the current training methods - not real likely but for the time maybe not so bad and they could be used in a commercial(non climbing)gym on vacation etc I suppose.

All this is from a "lifter" point of view of course.  But the information in theory could be of value.

[tedwelser]

Hey Mark and Chris-   Thanks a bunch for the helpful comments and insights.  Getting terms and concepts clear is really helpful, as is considering the ways in which the workout could/should be structured to try to make the most beneficial impact on functional hypertrophy of the grip specific muscles.      

Rather than working recruitment a drop set seems to be aiming at a sort of eventual inclusive exhaustion of all of the relevant muscle fibers through the course of the set.  Like you say, it seems like almost the opposite of recruitment.   It makes me wonder if perhaps drop sets should (if they show any efficacy) be included during base fitness stage, and placed far away from the power cycle, since they would seem to work at cross purposes in the short term.  

I think I have settled on the experimental protocol that I am going to try for this experimental run.

First, I used displacement to try to measure my forearms.  After a bit of procedural trial and error I settled on putting my cold water immersion PVC setup in the sink, on a large tupperware, and filled with cold water.  I sink my arm into the pipe with my elbow at about a 110 degree angle, and press the base of my bicep into the lip of the PVC.  A natural limit on how far I stick my arm into the water. 

I made two measures of each arm for grams of water displaced: 
Left:  1752, 1762  (avg 1757) 
Right:  1790, 1818 (avg 1804)  

I was happy to get these readings because it offers a bit of validity through triangulation, as the circumference I measured recently for the left is about .25 inches less than right.  I also notice that as I iterate to better grips on the VDER I tend to move the left in to better holds faster then the right. 

I need to get a taller tupperware to reduce splash/spill losses, but even with the current set up it worked pretty well because I could pour the water back in and it nearly topped the container each time.  But I would be happier if could more completely minimize any loss because I suspect that the current error term is close in size to the likely small effect size.   A clear graduated cylinder would be better but I don't have one.

I think I have settled on the workout plan that I am going to use for this experiment.

I am counting Monday as my first workout in the experiment, I plan to use the workout for 3 times per week for 3 weeks during my base fitness stage, currently with only minimal skill work bouldering. But I plan to transition to also doing some mild ARC workouts during weeks 2 and 3.  

After warm up my plan is to do 5 sets of hangs using semi/open crimp, and 5 sets using half crimp.

Semi crimp sets are on the RPTC VDERs, doing 5 incremental reps of 6 seconds on bottom row, and 5 on the top row.  My first 2 sets I am adding 20 lbs, 3-5 I am just using bodyweight.  I dont chalk or shake at all between reps. I aim to keep rest between reps as minimal as possible. (1-2 seconds) Moving grips between sets reduces the need for chalking if the edges are well prepped.

Half crimps are on the Forge, 3 hangs each starting on the thin crimp, moving to the inner grip of the VDER, and finishing on the large square edge.  These edges are really different from each other so I am removing weight while on the first 2 grips but using body weight on the last.  Ideally I want to use the pulleys to make these weight adjustments but I would have to get really quick to avoid undue rest between reps.  So far, placing my feet on holds has been the fastest way to adjust on the fly, but it lacks precision.  
 
My main protocol criteria are qualitative.  I am striving to get to a point of fatigue in the first 3 hangs, and then prolong the experience of being just barely able to complete each additional 6 second rep through to the final rep.  On the VDER I adjust location to try to ride the wave of my limit right at 6 seconds, and near the set end I have used my feet on holds as an emergency provision to be able to complete the last reps.    

I am unsure of what the ideal rest between sets should be.  For now I am aiming for between 4-5 min rest between sets, so a bit longer than I normally rest between my standard repeater sets.  This puts the workout at around an hour plus warm up-- which is doable.   Based on the workout that Chris described, an alternative strategy would be to reduce the weight and then reduce the rest between sets and make it like one big set.   But I think if I did that I might have to reduce the weight intensity too much?  

Finally, I think the semi crimp and half crimp dropsets are not likely to result in much increase in general forearm hypertrophy-- since those grips are not engaging the larger wrist twisting and flexing motions.  Hopefully that little bit of hypertrophy is highly specific and functional!

[climber511]

Ted training for climbing is much much different than for lifting as you know - but muscles are still muscles and the basic theories will remain the same I think. With obvious adjustments for the different results desired of course. I see no reason heavier and shorter sessions could not be included at different times aiming for different strength - endurance - hypertrophy growth outcomes with your protocol on the hang boards.

If I had to guess based on personal experience - the volume you will be doing might prove excessive as regards pure hypertrophy and tend a bit towards endurance???

[tedwelser]

Jan 31, 2017 12:41:34 GMT -7 climber511 said:

Ted training for climbing is much much different than for lifting as you know - but muscles are still muscles and the basic theories will remain the same I think. With obvious adjustments for the different results desired of course. I see no reason heavier and shorter sessions could not be included at different times aiming for different strength - endurance - hypertrophy growth outcomes with your protocol on the hang boards.

If I had to guess based on personal experience - the volume you will be doing might prove excessive as regards pure hypertrophy and tend a bit towards endurance???

Hey Chris-   That is interesting--  which part do you think is leaning more towards endurance--  the length of each set or the number of sets, or both?

[climber511]

Ted - think of time under Tension (TUT) like a bell curve. The sweet spot (and the curve) will move say from Strength to Hypertrophy to Endurance (there's more that can be put in there). Too heavy (and therefore too short) gives a strength focus and won't give that balance necessary for optimum size development - and too light will shift things out from under the curve the other way towards a more endurance oriented development. It's always a big guessing game when you start a new workout but my theory is it's always better that each workout only digs so deeply into muscular reserves and is followed by not only complete recovery but what is called super compensation. Doing too much too quickly results in what is generally called "toughening" and gives a quick bump in development but then a quick cessation of results. That's what I think might be the likely results with this volume/intensity. The most basic of all premises in fitness is "progressive" resistance - starting too high (or too long) leaves very little room for that progression. If pure size gains are the goal for this period - the other attributes desired for your climbing training will be compromised somewhat - you can have it all - but not all at the same time.

I'm sorry I'm not better at explaining all this so I'll close by saying "both" in answer to your question. Start with a lesser number of sets and reps - then use a very gradual increase in both intensity and/or time as your "progression" perhaps?