Forge VDER and Crimp

[tetrault]

VDER:
-Has anyone found the Forge VDER to be more finicky than other hang board edges?
-Or, do you find that the more skin-friendly friction/edge radius makes for more humidity or skin glassiness dependent hang results?

Crimp:
-Has anyone who previously avoided using the RPTC crimp (for skin reasons) been now using the Forge crimp, and what do you think?
-Anyone feel that wood is still the material of choice for this grip?



Why I ask:


VDER-

Since diligently following the RPTM, I had seen steady improvement over the first 12 hangboard seasons on my 4-finger open grip (5 seasons on a Metolius 3-d, then 7 on the original RPTC). Improvement being a new max weight hit in a season or a reduction of edge depth with a similar max weight. This grip position has always been towards the beginning of the workout as far as grip order.

After 4 seasons completely flatlined on this grip with the Forge, my 5th season ended in a 5lb regression.

I understand, from reading through many insightful posts on this forum, that making PRs on grip weight is not nearly as important as each workout being completed with full focus, effort and proper form. And, though, performance on rock is the ultimate goal, it is hard to not place importance on hang board numbers, since so much time and effort goes into the workouts. It seems to me that this flatlining/regression may be due to the friction on the board and wonder if any other Forge users have experience a similar situation.


Crimp-

I have experienced a split finger tip on the Forge crimp, but did not on the RPTC. But, there are many other factors that could have contributed to this other than the hang board itself. Possibly due to climbing on sharper holds that season, or simply that I use more weight on the Forge crimp since the thumb is involved.

I have read some posts about people using wooden holds for their crimp. Also some alluding to the crimp on the original RPTC causing skin issues (or at least fear of issues), but that the Forge was designed to fix these issues. I have never used wooden holds for hang boarding, but have been considering its use recently.



Thanks

[MarkAnderson]

I've been using the Forge VDER for the past 5 seasons. I've seen pretty steady progress on that grip (although for me, "steady progress" is an improvement of about 5-lb a year). It does feel hard to make progress on, but so does every other grip I'm training, haha. I'm sure it's condition-dependent, like all grips, but I don't find it to be particularly so (not like a pinch or sloper, etc).

I use a shimmed campus rung for my closed crimp, so I can't comment on the Forge Crimp, other than to say I think it comes with too much texture and should be sanded prior to use.

[Lundy]

How much do you shim the campus rung, Mark?

[tedwelser]

Dec 11, 2016 10:31:24 GMT -7 tetrault said:

VDER:
-Has anyone found the Forge VDER to be more finicky than other hang board edges?
-Or, do you find that the more skin-friendly friction/edge radius makes for more humidity or skin glassiness dependent hang results?

Crimp:
-Has anyone who previously avoided using the RPTC crimp (for skin reasons) been now using the Forge crimp, and what do you think?
-Anyone feel that wood is still the material of choice for this grip?



Why I ask:


VDER-

Since diligently following the RPTM, I had seen steady improvement over the first 12 hangboard seasons on my 4-finger open grip (5 seasons on a Metolius 3-d, then 7 on the original RPTC). Improvement being a new max weight hit in a season or a reduction of edge depth with a similar max weight. This grip position has always been towards the beginning of the workout as far as grip order.

After 4 seasons completely flatlined on this grip with the Forge, my 5th season ended in a 5lb regression.

I understand, from reading through many insightful posts on this forum, that making PRs on grip weight is not nearly as important as each workout being completed with full focus, effort and proper form. And, though, performance on rock is the ultimate goal, it is hard to not place importance on hang board numbers, since so much time and effort goes into the workouts. It seems to me that this flatlining/regression may be due to the friction on the board and wonder if any other Forge users have experience a similar situation.


Crimp-

I have experienced a split finger tip on the Forge crimp, but did not on the RPTC. But, there are many other factors that could have contributed to this other than the hang board itself. Possibly due to climbing on sharper holds that season, or simply that I use more weight on the Forge crimp since the thumb is involved.

I have read some posts about people using wooden holds for their crimp. Also some alluding to the crimp on the original RPTC causing skin issues (or at least fear of issues), but that the Forge was designed to fix these issues. I have never used wooden holds for hang boarding, but have been considering its use recently.



Thanks

I found the forge VDER to be fine, but I use it in two ways.  I use the deepest version and allow myself to use my thumbs to maintain stability.   I also use the outer part, no thumbs, for a much more difficult edge, and the radiused aspect of the edge makes it a bit stability dependent.  But I am subtracting weight on this so I find the pulley system helps me stay in a stable position, so this has been fine in the lower weights.

I never trained the crimp before this year, but the forge crimp has felt solid and predictable to me.  However, I have to say that I tend not to crimp except during crux sequences, so I am under-trained and am not in skin damage territory.  (my last set this fall I was still subtracting 20 pounds).  I think if I were adding a lot of weight I might want to start with a slightly deeper edge to load, but for my range the Forge crimp has been great.  

I have trouble training the 4 finger open hand on the Forge--  I got up to +90 using the square edge above the slimper and it started to feel uncomfortable so now I just use a moderate added weight on that grip as a warm up.   

In terms of progress across seasons I have found that dry and cold / consistent conditions are key to any grip with depth or different angles (sloper, VDER, etc).  In contrast, the IMR grip on the RPTC has been pretty consistent even without serious climate control.  I installed an air conditioner and a plastic room divider in my HB space and it made all the difference this summer and fall. 

[tetrault]

Mark:
Thanks for the reply. It is very possible that the timing of switching to the Forge just happened to line up with my open-grip entering the "5lbs/year" improvement zone, and that I had a poor showing this most recent season. 5lbs/year does seem to be where all grips are heading. And a hard-earned 5lbs!

Lundy:
Not to speak for him, but I was just looking at this post, and unless things have changed since August 2015, this is what Mark has posted on this forum regarding the campus rung crimp: link

Tedwelser:
Thanks for the response. What do you mean when you say "stability dependent"?
Glad to hear you are making gains and having to switch to smaller edges!



By the way, overall, I am finding the Forge to be an excellent hang board. I especially like the drafted pockets as they are very ergonomic on the skin and joints; used to often have 2nd pad skin problems on pockets until this board.

The thumb catch on the crimp was an excellent idea and seems to be a great way to train the crimp as accurately as possible (I will probably try sanding some friction off though).

And the VDER seeming hard/near impossible to improve on, though in the moment is rough, is probably a good thing in the long run!

[tedwelser]

Dec 12, 2016 4:00:35 GMT -7 tetrault said:

Mark:
Thanks for the reply. It is very possible that the timing of switching to the Forge just happened to line up with my open-grip entering the "5lbs/year" improvement zone, and that I had a poor showing this most recent season. 5lbs/year does seem to be where all grips are heading. And a hard-earned 5lbs!

Lundy:
Not to speak for him, but I was just looking at this post, and unless things have changed since August 2015, this is what Mark has posted on this forum regarding the campus rung crimp: link

Tedwelser:
Thanks for the response. What do you mean when you say "stability dependent"?
Glad to hear you are making gains and having to switch to smaller edges!



By the way, overall, I am finding the Forge to be an excellent hang board. I especially like the drafted pockets as they are very ergonomic on the skin and joints; used to often have 2nd pad skin problems on pockets until this board.

The thumb catch on the crimp was an excellent idea and seems to be a great way to train the crimp as accurately as possible (I will probably try sanding some friction off though).

And the VDER seeming hard/near impossible to improve on, though in the moment is rough, is probably a good thing in the long run!

Hey tetrault-   

My guess is that you are making progress on the SVDER grip even if the workout logs are not showing it right now.  I had a similar situation with the wide pinch for a couple seasons, and then saw what seemed like sudden progress recently, but if you averaged it out it would have been a standard 5 pound increase per half year. 

What shape do you keep your hand on the SVDER?  I use the "semi crimp" or the "chisel grip" or, basically my middle two are bent at the second joint while my index and pinky are open.  The exact grip one can use will depen on the relative length of your fingers.  I ask because I wonder how that grip position is feeling for you on boulder problems and routes.   That might be another source of information that would show evidence of progress.  One way this can manifest is that you will find, as this grip increases in strength that on key holds where you used to use a closed crimp this semi open grip will feel more than good enough to use.  I always like to note those moments where I can replace a closed crimp with a semi crimp and feel as though I am exerting less effort.  

"stability dependent" is the label I use for grips that have an optimal hand position that can easily slide into a similar but less optimal position.  So, the biggest of these to me is the pinch.  I find that, during a single rep, if my hand position sags or slides at all, then the grip rapidly starts to fall apart.   In contrast, the closed crimp and the slimper (because of the positivity of the holds) seem to have an optimal position that is inherently more stable, and thus is less susceptible to a cascade of destabilization.  

Anything with a rounded edge has this potential, where if your hand slides down a bit, the angle becomes slightly worse, and the same amount of effort that would have been secure on the higher, better angled section, is now insufficient, and leads to a further slide.  Eventually you just cannot continue.  

So, on the SVDER on the inner, best part, I can use it with my thumbs engaged on the side of the board and prevent the sliding, and thus keep my fingers loading the most optimal part.  Under the exact same conditions if I do not use my thumb I will fall into a slide, loss of relative strength, slide more cascade.   You could argue that using the thumb is a crutch that I will not often have on a real hold, however, the point of the HB training is to subject my fingers to a load and using my thumb to maintain the best possible position allows me to get better workouts.   So, I think this helps a great deal because when I do use my thumb I get to a weight that I feel my fingers tiring out, and failing because of weakness, rather than losing their optimal position and sliding off.  

On the chance that I am missing something important I also train the same edge without thumbs, but later in my workout and on a smaller part of the board.  

[tetrault]

Thanks for another detailed response!

I keep my VDER grip as open as possible based on the lengths of my fingers; probably about what you are doing. For the first few years of climbing, I didn't realize there was any grip position other than full crimp , so I have certainly seen progress in the more open variations. Hard to say to what level specifically over the last year or so though. If I don't pay attention, I will tend to slip back to unnecessary use of the full-crimp during ARC sessions.

Interesting that you use your thumb on the VDER. Is this a similar grip/hand position to the slopey crimp/slimper, just deeper?

I understand what you mean now when you say stability-dependent. I have been trying to focus on keeping as much force as possible close to the tips of my fingers on the VDER, as that is the most secure spot, as you describe. During a good workout, it feels like I can hold this position "forever", of course until a few seconds into the final rep of the final set, when all of a sudden I seem to have nothing left.

Do you think there is much of a difference between fingers "failing because of weakness" vs "losing their optimal position"?

Generally, on something rounded/sloped, isn't the optimal position, or the optimal load distribution on the fingers, high towards the tips and lower towards the base of finger? Same as saying, high at the deepest, most positive spot on the hold and lower on the rounded, outside edge of the hold. I had assumed that keeping a high load closer to the tips of your fingers takes more "strength" because of the longer lever arm. As you tire, you can't produce as much total force, and since the weight hanging off your fingers doesn't change, the lever arm must shorten, so the tips of your fingers unload, losing the "stability" you mentioned, and coming off the hold.

[MarkAnderson]

Dec 12, 2016 4:00:35 GMT -7 tetrault said:

Lundy:
Not to speak for him, but I was just looking at this post, and unless things have changed since August 2015, this is what Mark has posted on this forum regarding the campus rung crimp: link

I'm still using the same setup, 3/8" shim, leaving a 3/8" deep edge with a ~1/8" radius.

[tedwelser]

Dec 12, 2016 15:47:07 GMT -7 tetrault said:

Thanks for another detailed response!

I keep my VDER grip as open as possible based on the lengths of my fingers; probably about what you are doing. For the first few years of climbing, I didn't realize there was any grip position other than full crimp , so I have certainly seen progress in the more open variations. Hard to say to what level specifically over the last year or so though. If I don't pay attention, I will tend to slip back to unnecessary use of the full-crimp during ARC sessions.

Interesting that you use your thumb on the VDER. Is this a similar grip/hand position to the slopey crimp/slimper, just deeper?

I understand what you mean now when you say stability-dependent. I have been trying to focus on keeping as much force as possible close to the tips of my fingers on the VDER, as that is the most secure spot, as you describe. During a good workout, it feels like I can hold this position "forever", of course until a few seconds into the final rep of the final set, when all of a sudden I seem to have nothing left.

Do you think there is much of a difference between fingers "failing because of weakness" vs "losing their optimal position"?

Generally, on something rounded/sloped, isn't the optimal position, or the optimal load distribution on the fingers, high towards the tips and lower towards the base of finger? Same as saying, high at the deepest, most positive spot on the hold and lower on the rounded, outside edge of the hold. I had assumed that keeping a high load closer to the tips of your fingers takes more "strength" because of the longer lever arm. As you tire, you can't produce as much total force, and since the weight hanging off your fingers doesn't change, the lever arm must shorten, so the tips of your fingers unload, losing the "stability" you mentioned, and coming off the hold.

I think the big difference between "failing because of weakness" and "losing optimal position" is that in the second situation you will be curtailing your repetition or set much earlier in the fatigue curve of the exercise and you have fallen further way from the level of exertion that you are trying to experience.  Basically, in a counter factual situation you would have kept applying force at just a slightly lower level of intensity, but you missed the chance to because the grip changed to something else or fell apart.  

The most clear example of this is when conditions are too hot and humid and you cannot maintain good contact with the hold after a certain amount of time, not matter how strong you still feel. In contrast, I think the situation you describe in your first paragraph is what you want to work towards rather than having the hold slip away too soon. 

One thing that I do in my sets is to extend the final rep of my final set by a few seconds in order to get a clear sense of how close I am to my limit.  When I cannot hold more than a couple extra seconds I know that I am getting close to my current limit.  Another thing that I will do is, if I have increased my weight too much and I cannot finish a rep I will, in the moment, lower a toe to the floor and take just enough weight to get to the end of the rep.  I will mark in my notes the time that I failed, but I will try to make sure that I get a full rep, but essentially at a mixed level of intensity-- the target weight and something a bit less.  

These are ways that I shift my practice just a bit in order to try to get as many of the my sets to match the target TUT and get the experience of the reps to be as close to the idealized workout. 

[Jon]

Hey Mark,

Just so I am crystal clear, is your campus rung set up a 3/8" flat edge plus a 1/8" radius for a total depth of 1/2"? or a 1/4" flat edge with a 1/8" radius for a total depth of 3/8"?

Thanks!

[MarkAnderson]

The second one. It's a standard Metolius Small campus rung, flat-side up, with a 3/8" shim above it.

[Jon]

Thanks for clarifying Mark.