The Frustration that is the Micro (Thin) Crimp

[joev9]

Really want to get to BW on the Micro or Thin Crimp, but I have been stuck at -15 lbs. Stats from the last 3 rounds of hangboarding:

                         Weight off      Total Weight     Reps    Seconds on Last Rep
HB7 6/5/2015          -15              125.2             4                  2
HB8 6/8/2015          -15              127.2             2                  5
HB9 6/11/2015        -15              123.4             3                  3
HB10 6/14/2015      -15              126.4             3                  3

HB9 10/1/2015        -15              126.6             1                  5
HB10 10/4/2015      -15              127.2             2                  2

HB6 1/17/2016        -15              131.2             1                  5
HB7 1/20/2016        -15              133.2             2                  5
HB8 1/23/2016        -15              131.4             2                  6
HB9 1/26/2016        -15              132.4             3                  1
HB10 1/29/2016      -15                  ?                ?                  ?

Unless I have a big breakthrough tonight, I will end another cycle at -15 lbs. (I don't think I have ever gone from a 2/6 to a full 5 reps in a single workout).  Have PR'd every other grip this round.  I guess I have technically PR'd on total weight but still want to get this damn grip down to BW....

[erick]

Are you stepping up your weight in 5 lb increments? If so have you tried backing of 2.5 pounds and doing 17.5 lb instead of 20?

[Lundy]

Joe,
I know it might be blasphemy on this site, but one option would be to try a max hangs protocol next cycle, then go back to repeaters afterwards. I haven't completed this yet, but I, too, was stuck at -15 on the thin crimp with repeaters. I'm now seven workouts into my max hangs protocol, and am surprised at the gains I've made. I can't report back, yet, on how it will affect my repeater performance, but I'm feeling optimistic given that I'm now hanging +10 for 10 second hangs pretty comfortably.

[joev9]

Erick, yes, I have been doing 5 lb increments, but thanks to my holiday fat gain I ended up creeping up in small increments on total weight.

Lundy, I have been considering giving the max hang protocol a try for my next cycle (end of May/beginning June) so maybe that will be the trick.

Thanks!

[sloth]

Hey Joe,

A couple quesions:

First, where is the thin crimp in your lineup? If it's a priority for you, it might just need to get bumped up to the first or second grip in your workout. I don't know the science behind it, but I have found that it I tend to hit a wall with half and full crimp grips if they are even as late as 3rd in my workout. Pocket teams and pinches seem less affected by previous grips so I typically put them after.

Second, in each of the cycles you listed, did you go from finishing 5 reps really solidly at -20lb to the number of reps you show at -15lb(as low as 1 rep in some cases)? If so, the 5lb increment is probably too high. If not, consider staying at -20 until you are really crushing all 5 reps with perfect form. It is tempting to jump up 5lb on a grip as soon as you 'send', even if the last couple reps are super desperate and your form goes to shit, but I have found that I make more consistent gains when I hold at a certain weight until I really crush all 5 reps on my last set. If you jump too soon and can only finish 1-3 reps on your last set, the total time under tension is decreased so much for that grip that it may end up being an easier workout despite 5lb extra load, and not enough to force adaptation.

Hope that helps!

[joev9]

Second hold in the lineup, as it was my highest priority (I climb at a very crimpy bouldering area).

For the latest cycle, I went from -40 to -20 (HB1 through HB5) in 5 lb increments without a failed rep (successful 5 reps on the 3rd set every time). Didn't start failing until -15, then just couldn't push past. For me, on all grips, it seems like that change from -20 to -15 is a tipping point where it starts to feel hard and the weight off feels much less. Maybe next cycle I will try -17.5 before going to -15...

[sloth]

Got it.

Have you tried pushing the weight up on a bigger crimp?

Eva Lopez did a study comparing strength gains on large (1-pad, or 20mm) edges vs really small edges, and the results suggested that strength may be more easily gained through more load on larger holds vs. less load on small holds. She was looking at 1-rep max hangs, but I think this idea holds true for repeaters. If nothing else, I have noticed that strength on big holds transfers down to small holds better than strength on small holds transfers up.

Less specificity for your climbing area, but if what you are doing now isn't working it might be worth a shot?

[erk]

Lundy, did you come to any conclusions from switching protocols?

[Lundy]

Erk - thanks for bringing this back up. I've been meaning to report to folks on my use of max hangs for the last year. I'll try to answer two questions here: (1) did max hangs help me improve my repeater ability, and (2) what impact did max hangs have on my ability to make gains during campusing (as per a question Mark asked on another thread a while back.)

So, I'll start with Mark's question first, as it's easier to answer. His hypothesis was that doing max hangs would probably reduce the gains you see during campusing. Essentially, that I'd be working Max R with the max hangs, so my first campus workout would probably seem great, but that I'd then make little progress. I'm happy to report that this actually didn't happen. My campus ability has increased dramatically since I started doing max hangs. It's true that I feel stronger on the campus board on my first campus workout of each season after max hangs, but I haven't stalled out at all, and have continued to make great progress through the power phase.

Regarding the impact it's had on my repeaters, I can't answer that question exactly, as I haven't gone back to the 7/6/5 repeaters protocol that I was doing before switching to max hangs. What I do now is 6-8 workouts of "hypertrophy protocol" repeaters, where I use a weight that allows me to do three sets of 8-10 reps (7 on, 3 off) with only about 1:30 rest in between sets. Once I plateau with this protocol, I switch to a max hangs protocol (adapted from Steve Maisch's approach). I then do 6 max hangs workouts (I've found more really crushes me...). The idea was to be deliberate about building muscle mass, then switch to max hangs to recruit that muscle mass, then switch to campusing to teach that newly recruited muscle mass to act quickly.

So, what about that impact on repeaters? All I can tell you is that I was previously stuck on hanging -15 on my third set of repeaters under the old protocol (5 reps) and I'm now hanging -30 on all three sets of 8-10 reps in the hypertrophy protocol, and I was about 5 pounds heavier, so this is more like -25 in relative terms. So, I THINK I've made progress here, but I don't want to be too definitive. After the holidays, I'm going to start another cycle, and I think I'll use the Anderson Bros. protocol again to see what progress I've made doing this for the last year, and I can report back again then.

Hope my experimenting is helping people think through how to design their own programs! Let me know if anyone wants more information. I'll of course keep reporting back for folks to learn from my myriad mistakes!

[erk]

Thanks Lundy!

Very interesting! I'll definitely draw on this sometime in the future.

On another note.

A lot of my frustration on the thin crimp stemmed what I thought was a skin issue. I would get about 4 reps in and a crease in the middle of my pad would start to form. Even though I still plenty of gas in the tank, I would slip off. That was the first season I got the RCTM and haven't bothered with the thin crimp since then (1.5 years ago).

In the recent training beta with the Anderson Bros, they mentioned how hanging tiny edges can development the pulp in your finger tips. Perhaps this is my issue? Anyways now I'm psyched to give the thin crimp another go. I'll probably just take off a shit load of weight to get more TUT with the goal being pulpier fingers...

Did you ever experience anything like that.

[Lundy]

Constantly. Even still if the conditions aren't PERFECT, I usually fail due to slippage, rather than feeling like I can't hang more. This is one advantage of max hangs -- I don't think there's enough TUT to have that same impact, so I think I can push a bit harder...

I try not to let it bother me, though, as I figure I'm still getting stronger - I just think about the hold as being a bit harder to hold, so I have to adjust accordingly.

[tedwelser]

Do you have access to the Forge? The thumb catch seems to prevent much of the potential slippage you face on the RPTC crimp.

[erk]

Lundy - Good to know

tedwelser - Not right not now. I was considering upgrading after listening to the recent trainingbeta. Now I'm considering it even more.

I'd be curious if Mark experiences any slippage, or if his pulpy fingers negate that from happening.

[MarkAnderson]

I don't slip. My hand starts to open until a hit a firm brick wall that forces me to drop off.

[erk]

Cool, that would've been my guess. Well my psyche has been renewed for training small holds