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Post by Jack Ziegler on May 28, 2014 7:11:40 GMT -7
So from reading the book, it seems that the best time to start your diet to send weight (assuming you are not overweight) is at the start of the power phase, and to get there in ~three weeks and then maintain through the PE and performance phase. I'm curious as to why dieting in this phase is optimal? My general understanding is that dieting in the strength base saps gains from forearm growth, but wouldn't it theoretically also hold back gains from 'power growth'? Or would it theoretically not interfere because the training goal in this phase is muscle recruitment? I would assume that a strict diet would result in muscle as well as fat loss too, which is hopefully offset by the strength gains in forearm and upper body strength from SE exercises in the strength phase. Also, I personally find bouldering more taxing on my body than hang boarding. What additional considerations should one apply to training when on a diet? I would assume more rest than usual but anything else from experience that helps? Less volume than usual?
I have one more hang board workout left and have started tapering my food intake in anticipation. Goal is to drop 10 lbs, I likely have around 5 lbs of healthy fat and 5 pounds of muscle I could part with from my upper legs and back which are overkill for climbing. I have made measurable gains especially on the small crimp and two and one finger pockets and have recovered from slight finger and forearm tweaks as they arose.
Also, I gathered that additional very light exercise is good, such as daily hour long walks. Do you think yoga would also fall into that category, as long as it doesn't make one feel hungry? Or is it simpler and safer to just focus on the power work outs and the diet?
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Post by Mike Anderson on Jun 21, 2014 14:36:51 GMT -7
Jack, we advocate dieting during the power phase because, 1. it's adjacent to the performance phase, and is the last opportunity to do it, and 2. the adaptations we're going for during the power phase are largely neurological, as you suggested. The great thing about power training is that it is very short duration, so you don't require massive stores of glycogen in your muscles to sustain long efforts. You could feel a little sluggish from your caloric deficit, and still muster great explosive bursts for the few seconds you need for effective power training.
More rest is extremely helpful during this phase, and we typically cut out all extraneous activity. A light walk is OK, as long as it's not very hilly. Yoga depends on how strenuous, but it's probably OK if it's mostly focused on stretching rather than feats of strength. The key to power training is quality over quantity, so yes, perform less volume, rest a lot between attempts, and rest completely between workouts.
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Post by Jack Ziegler on Jun 22, 2014 6:08:24 GMT -7
Thanks for the reply. I'm also ( to my surprise) finding it easier to cut back and climb better while not exercising extra too much. Down 7 lbs now. I've been keeping the climbing workouts short and intense. Unfortunately I've also been fighting some pinched nerves and inflammation I should have gotten rid of before starting the power phase, so I'm taking 1.5 weeks off and then going back at it, realized after a few workouts I need my shoulders and biceps healthy to campus and do the limit boulder problems. My weaknesses in climbing seem to be where I lacked range of motion or had infammation, so I figure I need to address that before I truly push myself.
I've already seen progress on super crimpy low angled climbs (sent eiger direct in clear creek second try), probably due too being lighter and the new finger strength. I'll report back how the power phase finishes up. Some of my Goals are to send a couple more 12a's and a 12b this season and go up a bouldering grade in the gym. Currently at two 11ds and one 12a. I figure I'll hit my goal weight soon and then eat more and push myself with healthier shoulders and arms.
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Post by Mike Anderson on Jun 23, 2014 5:00:22 GMT -7
Congrats on your early success! Your plan sounds very, good luck!
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Post by Jack Ziegler on Jul 28, 2014 9:26:33 GMT -7
Update: I now have an 11d, 2 12a's, and a 12b redpoint (satanic mechanic in Aspen). That's my improvement from one 11d redpoint last year and a couple 11c onsights. Did 5 weeks of hang boarding, 7 weeks of power (with breaks 1 one week and 1.5 weeks in there to recover from my crazy shoulder flexibility work outs and tendonitis in shoulders, chest, and back. Did one power-endurance work out so far. I also lost 10 lbs, maintaining around 150 right now. Gonna try to ride out the performance for a few more weeks and then do no climbing for two weeks and get back into running and some gymnastic body-weight training again before I start the next strength cycle.
Jack
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jul 29, 2014 7:59:38 GMT -7
Nice job! Sounds like it's working.
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Post by Charlie S on Aug 21, 2014 8:05:47 GMT -7
For me, this has proven to be difficult. I tried a 75% diet for about a week (and if I'm honest with myself, I'm at a 85%-90% diet for the past 2 weeks). I managed to drop down 3 pounds, but have stagnated there. Now I'm going to try more salads interspersed with portion-controlled regular meals. Currently I'm hovering at 160-162 (I'm 6'0").
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Post by daustin on Aug 21, 2014 9:46:09 GMT -7
I'm hoping that by posting here, I'll better shame myself into sticking to the weight loss plan. Currently I'm at about 178 lbs. and 5'10" (boof). Goal is to drop 10 lbs. over the next weeks. Aiming to achieve mostly by 1) no alcohol during the week, and limited during the weekend, 2) better portion control, 3) more aerobic exercise (can finally start running on my recently sprained ankle!), and 4) "better" nutrition, i.e., more low GI foodstuffs
Will check back in periodically with progress! Good luck to others
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Post by daustin on Oct 30, 2014 9:33:54 GMT -7
I'm hoping that by posting here, I'll better shame myself into sticking to the weight loss plan. Currently I'm at about 178 lbs. and 5'10" (boof). Goal is to drop 10 lbs. over the next weeks. Aiming to achieve mostly by 1) no alcohol during the week, and limited during the weekend, 2) better portion control, 3) more aerobic exercise (can finally start running on my recently sprained ankle!), and 4) "better" nutrition, i.e., more low GI foodstuffs Will check back in periodically with progress! Good luck to others I'm a little late with this, but I figured I should stay true to my word and check back in, at least once. I'm currently in my rest phase after a nice 'performance peak' spent at the RRG. I'm happy to say I was able to meet my weight loss goal almost exactly -- lost just over 10 lbs. before the trip, and have been hovering around there ever since. Starting my next training phase soon, and will be aiming to drop another 5-10 lbs. at the culmination. FWIW, I think part of the reason I achieved my goal was through using a nutrition/weight loss app called My Fitness Pal. I've tried various 'food diary' apps in the past, but have never stuck with them or seen any effect. I think I was able to stick with it this time around because 1) it's a well designed, intuitive app, and 2) my goal was better defined, with a specific 'deadline' as opposed to being open-ended, which made it easier to 'see the light at the end of the tunnel', so to speak. It's been nice to be a little more lax during my rest phase -- enjoyed a nice glass of bourbon last night watching the Giants win another championship, and have had pizza TWICE in the past couple weeks (gasp) -- but I'm also motivated to get back into the training mindset, since I now feel like I actually have some control and know I can produce results!
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Post by MarkAnderson on Nov 1, 2014 9:20:03 GMT -7
Nice job man! I think some kind of food journal is really helpful. When I'm dieting, I write down everything I eat each day. I now have several seasons worth of these journals, so when I set a goal to lose a certain amount in time for a certain performance event (like, say the opening day for Independence Pass, or the departure day of an overseas climbing trip) I can pretty easily predict how long it will take for me to lose the weight, and what things I can/should eat to achieve the goal.
Enjoy your time off and use it to get extra psyched for the next phase!
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Post by alexandra on Feb 5, 2016 10:26:34 GMT -7
I was wondering how detrimental it would be to completely skip the weightloss aspect of training. I have been at a pretty healthy weight for 10+ years, fluctuating one or two pounds depending on how much I lift weights. That being said, I feel like for my physique, if I lost 10 lbs (now i am at 120 lbs) I would be "too skinny" and perhaps unhealthy. I am also against advocating weightloss especially for girls that are at a healthy weight, since I have had a couple of friends that fought with eating disorders and that seemed like a very subtle line from dieting to eating disorder...Any thoughts on that?
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Post by jessebruni on Feb 5, 2016 11:10:52 GMT -7
I think "healthy weight" is not a specific number, but a range. Lets say for me healthy weight is somewhere between 130-150 lbs. If I am at 150 lbs, I'm not unhealthy, but you can bet that my sport climbing would improve drastically by moving closer to 130. On the other hand, if I'm sitting at 135, I'm already pretty close to my fighting weight, in that case I'm not so worried about cutting weight.
Staying healthy is always the most important factor, if you feel weak and can't complete your workouts because you're dieting, then you should probably increase your caloric intake a bit. On the other hand, if you are interested in seeing how you would feel if you dropped a few pounds then it's not a big deal to try dieting a little bit and see how it works for you.
IMO (and I'm not a doctor or a psychologist), there is NOT a subtle line between dieting and eating disorders. A diet is a focused effort to reduce caloric intake by a pre-planned amount in order to drop to a specific bodyweight for specific reasons. An eating disorder is a psychological affliction that can manifest in various ways, one of which may encourage someone to reduce their caloric intake in order to drop bodyweight to the point where they feel that they look good, which they'll likely never reach since their issue is psychological. I think they are two totally separate things, one is calculated, healthy, and controlled. The other is based off of emotion, generally irrational, and uncontrolled. Just because they both involve eating less food than normal doesn't mean they're similar.
Now if you know that you have body image issues, and you feel like you are at risk of developing an eating disorder, maybe don't diet. But for the vast majority of folks (women included) a diet will not induce an eating disorder.
As for whether or not it would be detrimental to completely skip the weight loss aspect, I think if you're already at a healthy weight for a climber you will be perfectly fine without dieting or trying to lose weight. Just as long as you're honest with yourself about what a healthy weight is for you (bearing in mind that we participate in a sport where we want to be on the lighter end of that healthy weight), then you'll be fine.
Oh and don't fixate on the number. Losing 10 lbs of muscle in the upper body would NOT be a good thing just to climb harder.
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Post by alexandra on Feb 5, 2016 11:50:09 GMT -7
thanks! I don't think I have body image issues, I just have heard and seen too much bad originating from what started as a simple diet, that I am afraid to go down that path. I am pretty muscular in my upper body with smaller legs and hips, so I am also afraid that any diet would attack my upper body muscle first, and I worked super hard to get it. I might experiment around, but I just wanted to see if folks that lost weight saw significant improvement in their climbing. (And sorry for all those posts, I am new to this training approach and it seems overwhelming)
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 5, 2016 12:05:53 GMT -7
IMO (and I'm not a doctor or a psychologist), there is NOT a subtle line between dieting and eating disorders. A diet is a focused effort to reduce caloric intake by a pre-planned amount in order to drop to a specific bodyweight for specific reasons. An eating disorder is a psychological affliction that can manifest in various ways, one of which may encourage someone to reduce their caloric intake in order to drop bodyweight to the point where they feel that they look good, which they'll likely never reach since their issue is psychological. I think they are two totally separate things, one is calculated, healthy, and controlled. The other is based off of emotion, generally irrational, and uncontrolled. Just because they both involve eating less food than normal doesn't mean they're similar. I have no idea if what you wrote is true or not, but I do know for a fact that it is possible to start down the "calculated, healthy, and controlled" path and end up on the other path. If you want to read a real life and highly relatable horror story to that effect, check out Matt Samet's "Death Grip". His case is perhaps a bit extreme, but I know other people who have lost control with dieting as well.
Of all the things I've advocated over the years, I'm the least comfortable with advocating dieting, because I think it can have severe consequences for some people. When there are consequences, they seem to be much more far-reaching than something like a pulley strain. So I try to emphasize that it's a personal decision and should not be taken lightly. I took up climbing (seriously) because I was sick of running all the time, and I wanted to finally do a sport that was fun. Well, dieting is the quickest way to suck all the fun out of climbing.
That said, there is no doubt that body weight is a significant factor in climbing performance. Almost every climber could benefit from losing weight (unless you already have veins popping out of your 8-pack). You just have to ask yourself how good you want to be and how badly do you want to be that good? For most people, I would recommend that they just enjoy climbing for as long as possible. Eat a healthy diet but don't get on a scale every day. When you have a REALLY important goal, and you REALLY need an edge, then diet temporarily.
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Post by jessebruni on Feb 5, 2016 12:28:31 GMT -7
As I said before, I'm neither a doctor nor psychologist (psychiatrist? not even sure which is the correct one here) so this is just my viewpoint, my own personal opinion, who knows how much of it is true. I've never read death grip, but I've heard of it, I'll have to check it out sometime. I assume dieting with an eating disorder is similar to alcoholism in the sense that, while having a beer or two on the weekends is no big deal for most of us, for an alcoholic that can lead down a dangerous path. In both cases there is a psychological affliction in place that causes what would be an acceptable, controllable thing, to be dangerous. But I don't believe everyone can go from normal dieting, to eating disorder. It takes a certain kind of person to develop an eating disorder, and that was the distinction I was trying to make when I was saying that it's not so simple as "If you diet too much you'll develop anorexia nervosa or anorexia athletica". I guess the issue is that most people probably won't know whether or not their that type of person.
Anyway, since I feel like I need to put this disclaimer now, I'm just discussing my thoughts on a matter. I'm no authority on this matter, by a long ways, so don't take anything I've said here as fact.
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