Using a simulated training route

[tedwelser]

Simulating aspects of a goal route:

How best can I integrate RP project preparation into all of my training cycles this spring?
How have you used route simulations to aid your RP project progress?
What additions / suggestions do you have for my current plan?

Background: Tuna Town (on the undertow wall at the motherlode) is my primary RP project for Spring 2015. In winter training I focused exclusively on strength and power, and in the fall, I did a full season but only sought to onsight / flash, with some success at 11D / 12A.

In November I bolt to bolted TT, sussing out the moves and getting a sense of how challenging it felt. All the sections felt very doable, and I think the route will boil down to recovery capacity on the three good rests (after the no hands at bolt #2). Sending TT will involve a base fitness upgrade and getting back into the redpointing process again.

Based on memory, and two online videos, I figured out a bunch of details including # of moves between bolts, crux locations/attributes, rest locations, etc. The route has about 70 hand moves, 9 clips, and although it is generally 28 degrees overhung, the angle varies a bit around some mini roofs and on the final headwall.

So, I set a Tuna Town Trainer in the Dojo, that mirrors the general dimensions of the route, 70 moves, 9 clips, general location and nature of cruxes (within limits of a steep bouldering room). The route follows a numbered series of taped holds and clips around the room, eventually ending on the RPTC for the anchor clipping finale.
The simulation is far from an exact duplicate but is meant to raise the same types of problems that TT does.

I am in base fitness now, but my current plan is to treat the TTT as an indoor redpoint project that I can insert aspects of into my training. My general plan is to learn each bolt to bolt section of TTT as a stand alone problem. Then, insert those problems into larger structures, either linking chunks of TTT or as ingredients into ARC, power endurance, linked boulder problems, etc. I will also use it as part of my “indoor mileage” when I can’t get outside.

The TTT is intended to approximate the general types of difficulties and pacing of TT, and beyond preparing for that route, is for building general capacity to climb undertow wall type routes. I expect the TTT might be a grade harder than the real thing, but I will have a better sense after I work both of them a bit more.

I also want to use working the TTT as an ongoing involvement in the processes of redpointing. In the RCTM approach I have enjoyed this process most directly in the power endurance training where I really suss out all the moves, and can get a really focused flow going. This feeling is central to redpointing and I want to practice it consistently through the whole season, at least as a component that I can bring into my warm-ups, even on a HB day.

In the past I have set crux simulations that were as realistic as possible.  This plan is rather different because it is more about the general challenges, (like a series of semi cruxy crimp moves at the end of 55 moves and a matching rest).  

[MarkAnderson]

I've had mixed results with using route simulators. I've read that practicing a movement that is very similar, but not identical, to the movement you are practicing for is actually detrimental, because it's confusing to your nervous system. Another thing I've come to dislike about simulators is that more often than not I tend to get sick of my projects before I can actually send them (probably a motivation problem at its core). Training on a simulator seems to accelerate this burnout, because you never really get a break. So, I think it's a good thing your TTT is simulating the general characteristics of the Undertow wall moreso than attempting to mimic the actual moves.

Another factor to consider is that generally it's possible to climb much faster on plastic than on rock, and TUT is probably a more useful metric than # of hand moves. The Red is probably a slight exception since it climbs so much like a gym, but I bet you still climb a bit slower even at the Red. Next, based on what I know of the Dojo, I imagine the TTT has a lot of traversing moves? Traversing is definitely not as physically taxing as climbing up. If possible, work in as much up and down climbing as possible. For all these reasons, I would problem shoot for a TTT that is a bit harder than the actual route.

I wonder about working it "bolt to bolt". If the overall difficulty is right, I would expect those bolt to bolt problems to be fairly easy. Be sure to mix in some harder problems during you power phase.

Overall I like your approach and I'm sure it will be engaging if nothing else, which increases the chances that you will keep working it, and eventually get something out of it.

[tedwelser]

Mar 5, 2015 15:04:56 GMT -7 MarkAnderson said:

 . . . .

Hey Mark- thanks a bunch for your very helpful insights.

I am glad to hear that I should not seek to duplicate the particular moves, and in fact, it is better to make sure the simulation reflects the time under tension. I will make my first priority to get a video of myself on the route so that I can time my pace through each section so that I can approximate the TUT in the simulation. I had not anticipated either of the risks of over-specificity (distorted movement expectations and risk of burnout). The constraints of the dojo make a more accurate simulation impossible because it is so short-- I guess what I thought was a bug is more of a feature.

I hear you on the limitation of the dojo in terms of climbing upwards. Because of that I tried to make the problem climb up and out as much as possible. It goes up the 70 degree wall twice, and up the 55 degree wall once, and connects these primarily by crossing the roof. I tried to make the traversing sections more strenuous by pushing the handholds into the roof and making the moves bigger and more burly. Or, alternatively, by keeping hands low and having to contend with feet that are a bit too high. The less steep headwall is where TTT is least similar, because I can’t make big upward moves on less steep walls. The only saving grace is that the final headwall footholds are pretty good on TT, and that my main limiting factor in the final section will likely be finger strength rather than more general fitness. Or at least I hope so.

In terms of “bolt to bolt” I just meant that I wanted to spend a little time sussing out the best beta, rather than using the approximately ok sequence that I come up with at first. And I agree, during the power phase different chunks of TTT are much too easy, they would just be useful in the warm up boulder ladder.

I can’t be sure, but I think that I made the chunks of TTT harder than the chunks of TT, but my last visit was November so I need to calibrate my sense of difficulty.

I did have a chance to get on the problem tonight and I noticed that it gave me one of the experiences that I was hoping for, which is this sensation of being only 1/3 of the way through a long route and attempting to recover on a decent rest while looking forward in my head to all the upcoming detail in the route. Mentally rehearsing moves, remembering details, while reducing arousal are part of what I have been missing in my training and in my focus on onsighting, which seems to be more about generating the right mindset in the moment.

Thanks again! I hope to be able to report back with some good results later this spring.

[MarkAnderson]

Awesome.

When trying to determine the appropriate TUT, keep in mind that your speed on TT will likely increase as your knowledge of the moves improves. So whatever you come up with on recon will be an approximation. It would be helpful to time yourself on something first day on, and then compare that to the time you send. If you did this a few times you could come up with a factor you could use to predict how much you will speed up. I've never done this but I probably should. Anecdotally the business section of the route I'm working now was taking me around 1:45 when I started, and now it's down to about 1:10.

On a related note, there are (at least?) two schools of thought on climbing at the Red. My approach is to all out sprint, and race the pump to the chains, unless there is a REALLY good rest. Mike has climbed there way more than me, and his approach is to ARC everything, essentially climbing really slow and resting on everything. Hard to say which is better; we've both had good success with our respective tactics, but I've mostly done onsighting there. I think the climber's fitness plays a role. The Red was Mike's main crag for 3 years, and so he was training specifically for it, and could emphasize ARCing in his training to prepare for his style. I only visited for a few days at a time, and I never planned my season around those trips, so I had to make the most of whatever fitness I had at the time (which was generally more towards the power end of the fitness spectrum). Another factor influencing my tactics was that I was always visiting at the very end of my seasons, so I had good PE, but ARCing was a distant memory.

The reason I mention this, is that it plays into your target TUT. If you plan to sprint, expect the TUT to decrease as you work the route. If you plan to ARC, TUT may not change so much.

[slimshaky]

mark, i have sort of a similar question. do you think it would make sense to replicate a crux on a system board, but have several different variables that could be varied, ie a 'zone' of little holds for the feet, varying lengths in the hand throws, and varying steepness? my thought is that you could get the feel of a crux to be familiar, and that the variations would provide enough 'coverage' to be able to adapt to the real crux on the real rock.

[MarkAnderson]

If you're essentially rehearsing a dyno, I wouldn't do it. Unless the replica is exact (within the margin of error of you latching or not latching the target hold), you are basically training yourself to miss the target every time. An error of half an inch in the Y or Z axis could be enough to ensure failure (or in the X axis if the target is a pocket).

I once brought a tape measure to the cliff to map out a particular move, and reconstructed it in the barn. The holds sizes/shapes were not identical (because how could you, without using plaster or something?), but the distances between them were very close. I could do the simulator on command, but it didn't help me at all on the route. It actually felt like I was hitting the exact same spot every time, so in a sense it worked perfectly, except that the spot didn't happen to contain the target hold

Instead, put together some problems that are in the same genre, but not meant to be exact replicas. You can rehearse that TYPE of move, without interfering with your muscle memory.

[tedwelser]

Hey Mark-   Thanks a bunch for the follow up.  I will pay attention to my pacing across attempts to see if there is a rate of progression.  In general I have been more of an ARC or endurance climber at the Red, so I might be more like Mike than you in that sense.   My RRG redpoint experience is usually one of finding good solutions to hard situations and resting my way up.  Of course, there is no such thing as too much power so I would love to be in a position to sprint my way up instead.   

I have been reading the PE chapter again and I think there are interesting questions related to rock type and the balance between route intervals and the standard LBC PE endurance training.  My first times through the RCTM approach I neglected the route intervals.  I just focused on the the LBC's with 20 to 30 move sections with no rest and rapid repeats.  This is what you need for brief intense routes like Phantasia or Thirsting Skull, but not for long, complex endurance rigs like Mercy the Huff or Apollo Reed.  These routes seem much more about recovering on the route and taking your time, rather than sprinting through.  

While working my simulation problem I cultivated an intense forearm burn that I associated with my 1990's training, and did not tend to occur when I was doing my PE workouts this fall.  It seems to come from recovering on the route, on longer (50-80) move problems.   Anyways, south eastern sandstone tends to have a lot of situations where the capacity to rest on good holds in steep terrain is the key to success.   My forearms were super worked from yesterday and my session today showed how tired I actually was, with me falling off of several problems at places I would easily finish otherwise.   So, anyways, I wonder how rock type, angle, and the variance in the quality of holds influences which PE strategies that are best for training.  I know that during this season I will work hard to cultivate that deep forearm burn of the long, complex routes.  

Anyways, I really appreciate all of the helpful insights for training conveyed in the RCTM.  All I had before was Performance Rock Climbing, and now I feel as though there is so much more potential to develop new understanding of how to improve.  A new step for me in evaluating performance is to measure route attributes relative to others (like pacing) and from that develop short term sending strategies and long term training objectives.  Personally I would love to become more of a power climber, but for now I am an endurance climber. 

[slimshaky]

Mar 6, 2015 15:04:02 GMT -7 MarkAnderson said:

If you're essentially rehearsing a dyno, I wouldn't do it. Unless the replica is exact (within the margin of error of you latching or not latching the target hold), you are basically training yourself to miss the target every time. An error of half an inch in the Y or Z axis could be enough to ensure failure (or in the X axis if the target is a pocket).

I once brought a tape measure to the cliff to map out a particular move, and reconstructed it in the barn. The holds sizes/shapes were not identical (because how could you, without using plaster or something?), but the distances between them were very close. I could do the simulator on command, but it didn't help me at all on the route. It actually felt like I was hitting the exact same spot every time, so in a sense it worked perfectly, except that the spot didn't happen to contain the target hold

Instead, put together some problems that are in the same genre, but not meant to be exact replicas. You can rehearse that TYPE of move, without interfering with your muscle memory.

damn, that is sooooo not what i wanted to hear.  my deal is that i am basically not going to be able to climb until probably mid summer.  so, i have been trying to get solid on the 'mono move', in which mark anderson stars as wilt chamberlin.... .  also, the stand-up-undercling-of-death.  the gym HAD a pretty good setup for both of these (until they completely rearranged the SB to look amazing but not be very functional...).  i was incorporating those moves into my power workout.  i figured if i worked on this off and on, this fall i would be a step ahead.

your idea about the tape measurer - i was totally going to do that on some snowy day but never got around to it.

[jcm]

Mar 6, 2015 15:04:02 GMT -7 MarkAnderson said:

Instead, put together some problems that are in the same genre, but not meant to be exact replicas. You can rehearse that TYPE of move, without interfering with your muscle memory.

As usual, Mark's advice seems right on the money.  It also seems to fit pretty well with a major part of the underlying RPTM philosophy (as I see it), which is to train for routes not by targetting and working-to-death a given route too specifically, but rather to increase your general ability to climb a route of that type.  This way, you prepare yourself to climb not just that one 5.XXa, but rather to be able to do many 5.XXa's.  The same seems to be applicable here to training a certain move.  Instead of trying to train the exact undercling-standup move on your simulator, perhaps it is better to train a variety of undercling-standup moves, to get generally better at that type of move.  In addition to the problem Mark mentions (of forming incorrect muscle memory that will interefere with your climbing on the project), this approach will help more in the future whenever you encounter an undercling-standup move.

I used this approach on a project last spring in Clear Creek (Sweet Inspirations, one of those New River Wall linkups).  The finishing move of the crux section, which for me felt like the redpoint crux, involved a deadpoint in which your right hand moves directly sideways along a horizontal seam, latching a downpulling hold out in the iron-cross position.  I was having some trouble coordinating the accuracy of the horizontal hand movement with latching downward on the hold.  I think one issue was that the move was somewhat novel for me.  The movement was kind of weird, since only your right arm moved; you had to keep the rest of your body kind of stationary to keep the feet on the bad footholds.  Anyway, after a few times on the route, figuring out the sequence, I decided it might help to practice this type of move on the system board. 

The goal was not to replicate that exact move-- if I wanted to try that exact move I would just go get on the route, since it was 10 minutes from my house.  Instead, what I did was practice a wide range of generally similar moves, in which you had to latch down after a move way out to the side.  I practiced this type of move using smaller moves on small holds, and bigger spans on slightly better holds.  I also tinkered with the angle (Earth Treks adjustable wall) to see how it felt at 25 degrees versus 35 degrees.  Trying all of these permuations let me calibrate how I move on that type of movement, and created a better understanding of how that type of move works than could be gained by simply practicing the exact same move over and over again. It seems to have worked, since after a few of these system board sessions trying these types of moves, mixed in with a more general power/PE maintenence workout, I was able to return to the route and feel much more in tune with the actual crux move.  The send happened soon thereafter.

Anyway, the basic idea here is that if you try a range of permuations of the target move, you'll actually understand that move better (via a sort of calibration process) than if you were to practice only that same move over and over again.  A similar idea is likely applicable to the OP's Tuna Town Trainer.