Finger Rolls (cross-post from r/climbharder)

[daustin]

Thought I would share a discussion from Reddit ClimbHarder that folks here might find interesting. (Hope it's OK to cross-post from another forum!)

https://www.reddit.com/r/climbharder/comments/81n6zf/finger_rolls_for_finger_strength_experiment_update/

Definitely makes me interested in trying finger rolls. I remember reading some posts from Will S on MP about them, with the conclusion that they only work to a point but once they get heavy enough it's hard not to cheat them with shoulders. This seems different in that it's a higher rep range with lower resistance, which seems like it might be easier to avoid cheating.

A lot of the people that post there are focused much more so on bouldering than sport, and there tends to be a bias for max hangs over repeaters. So I'm not sure if it makes sense to do both finger rolls and repeaters. But I'm in a place now where I feel I can accommodate some experimentation at the expense of perfection (see other thread re: split repeaters workout).

[dsm]

I saw this post over there and was curious about it too. I have the problem that I tend to pump off the hangboard during the strength phase for the first 2 or 3 hangboard sessions before I get used to doing repeaters again, so I have been keeping an eye out for potential solutions. I was wondering if I did two weeks of finger curls at low weight, high reps, before starting my HB phase whether or not this might help with my issue. I will probably just try it, but if anyone has experience doing it, I'd be interested in hearing if they think this could help.

[scojo]

I've also considered trying these out, but I'm not sure how I would fit them in to my usual training (or what to take out). It'd be easier to find a good time for them if I had a barbell setup at home.

[dsm]

You can use dumbells too. Buried in that Reddit thread is a video of a German national climber doing them with dumbells: youtu.be/e2oWz1fKgik

[scojo]

Yeah, I only have a 45 pounder, which is not quite heavy enough. I should just buy some basic equipment though. If I had the equipment at home, I could do them after a climbing day where the climbing wasn't too finger intensive.

[RobF]

Seem to remember back in the day these were abandoned due to people becoming injured. However there was probably less awareness of appropriate intensity:rep & set ratios, and also going too heavy and losing form. Think there might be some benefits from doing eccentrics with these with the proviso of plenty of appropriate antagonistic muscle training.

My preference is for max partial deadlifts from jerk boxes. My 1rm for these is 300kg held for 10 seconds. With a body weight of 80kg a workout of 1/2 bodyweight would be 40kg. Even at 150% body weight this would only be 120kg which for me would be less than third warm up set on regular deadlifts (1 plate / 2 plates / 3 plates). I also do fat bar deadlifts with a piece of drainpipe slid over the barbell. For these my thumb can only just touch my index fingers and I find it works the grip really well.

Whichever technique is chosen the complex training methods are very useful to awaken the nervous system for a bouldering or fingerboard session following...

[RobF]

If you haven't got a load of weight then the Westside methods with bands or chains can be helpful...

[joshvillen]

I am currently doing these as a pre hab/rehab for my fingers. Hypertrophy would be nice and I hope some strength gains come out of it but this should definitely be a good exercise for clearing up some finger niggles. Assuming lower intensity and higher reps

[mkane]

Any updates? I've been trying these as well since seeing that post, but after a few weeks the results have been disappointing. Plan to stick with them for another few weeks before giving up

[daustin]

Apr 2, 2018 12:43:18 GMT -7 mkane said:

Any updates? I've been trying these as well since seeing that post, but after a few weeks the results have been disappointing. Plan to stick with them for another few weeks before giving up

How have you been programming them?

I've squeezed in a few workouts just to try them out and because I haven't had much time to do anything else. I really like that I can knock out a warm up and 5 sets within a half hour, very efficient. In terms of results, all I can say at this point is that it certainly feels like there is a relevant stimulus, as I get quite pumped in a way that I don't get even from repeaters. I climbed at the gym for the first time yesterday in a couple weeks, and didn't feel like I'd just taken a couple weeks off despite the fact that the few sets of finger rolls were the only climbing-related activity I'd done in that time.

This is at least promising enough for me to keep trying them. I also think I might have a lot of n00b gains on the table, as I think (?) I'm pretty weak. After a few workouts I got up to 5 sets of 20 reps using 85 lbs (53% of BW), which feels like a pretty low weight relative to the grades I climb but I'm not sure (can send most V6 in a single session).

I'm a bit worried that a workout of just finger rolls a couple times a week + 1 day a week of bouldering won't be enough volume to maintain strength, so I'm considering doing a couple max hangs during finger roll workouts, focusing on half & full crimp. Will probably try this for about a month or so, see how it goes, and then switch back to my split-repeaters workout. Hopefully at some point I'll get a home wall built so I don't have to keep switching back between month-long strength training cycles in perpetuity

[jcm]

I've incorporated finger rolls into my strength training the past two winters, due to various circumstances. I've found that the finger rolls are effective for hypertrophy, but do not translate as directly to on-the-rock strength as hangboarding. I think they can be a useful supplement in some situations, but they aren't a replacement for the hangboard.

The first time I incorporated them was Feb-March 2017. I had developed an inflamed PIP in January that prevented climbing or hangboarding on edges for several months. But the finger rolls did not irritate it, so I used them as a way to target the forearms without irritating the finger. It seemed to work reasonably well; I progressed at the exercise and my forearms did get bigger. The rolls likely contributed somewhat to rehabbing the injury also. Once my finger was healed (just in time for spring climbing season), the strength built from the rolls did not immediately translate to climbing in the way that hangboard strength seems to for me. But within a month of being back to climbing it seems that my body learned to recruit the "big dumb muscle" built from the rolls, and eventually my fingers felt adequately strong that season.

Conclusion (1): Rolls were an adequate stop-gap measure to maintain forearm strength when I couldn't hangboard due to injury. But hangboarding seems to be more directly transferable to climbing. In the future, assuming healthy fingers, I will choose more specific exercises (hangboard, bouldering, etc) over rolls.

The second time I've used rolls was this winter, Feb-March 2018. This winter my fingers have been healthy, but I've been quite time-limited. As such I've compressed my strength/hangboard workouts into abbreviated sessions I can do during lunch at my office gym. It is a good weight room, and I have a decent hangboard setup there (I'll do a post about this another time), but warming up is a challenge. No climbing wall to warm up on, and I hate trying to warm up on the hangboard (boring, tweaky, slow). The finger rolls work great though. I do 3 sets of 10 at the start of the workout. First set is pretty easy, second set is medium, and third set is hard-ish (but not to failure). I superset these with other supplemental exercises (shoulder presses; lat pull-downs), and that whole process takes less than 15 minutes. Afterward my fingers and forearms feel nicely warmed up through the full range of motion, and I'm ready to go straight into try-hard hangboard sets. This seems to be faster, better, and less-tweaky than trying to warm up with easy hangs.

Conclusion (2): Rolls are a fast and effective way to warm up for hangboarding if you have a barbell but no climbing wall. I will continue using them for this purpose.

[mkane]

Daustin, I'm at work and don't have my logs but...

I've done them for about 3 weeks now using a 40 lb dumb bell (no barbell access) using 2-3 sets, 2-3x per week. I've increased my max reps from 17 to 31 during that time frame. I initially dropped my 3f drag max hangs as steven low suggested hoping that rolls would maintain my open hand grip strength. After 3 weeks, I have experienced no hypertrophy (forearm circumference 30cm before and after). My crimp and chisel hang numbers stayed the same(ish), and my 3f max hang dropped by about 10lbs. Granted, I was at the tail end of a 3 month cycle so I was carrying over noticeable fatigue between sessions and I wasn't expecting my numbers to really go up at that point.

In a rest period now, after which I plan on buying a 50 and possibly 60 lb dumb bell and trying them for another 3-4 weeks. We are also operating at about about the same climbing level which so I was interested in hearing how things were going for you

Cheers,
Mike

[daustin]

Do you guys curl the wrist at all, or keep it as static as possible? I've seen both on tutorial vids... I don't have the anatomical knowledge to know whether that would be helpful for climbing or would be counter-productive by introducing fatigue unrelated to the finger part of the movement.

[mkane]

I tried it both ways... my thought was the wrist curl was so easy compared to the bottom part of the roll that it probably didnt add much benefit

[jcm]

I don’t wrist curl.