Max Hangs - Setting Baseline

[daustin]

Hi all,

I'm just wrapping up a cycle of repeaters, and for the first time I'm going to try incorporating some max hangs into my training program.

I've read the classic Maisch guide to max hangs, which includes a 'test' protocol to determine the baseline. www.stevemaischtraining.com/fingerboarding-for-maximum-strength.html

What I'm wondering is, can I determine my baseline without devoting a whole training day to the test protocol?

I've seen various discussions suggesting that repeaters are training around 60-70% of your 1RM, whereas max hangs are more like 80-90%. So, can I do a calculation using my repeaters data to determine an approx max hang baseline? E.g., if my PR for the thin crimp on repeaters is 120 lbs (incl. bodyweight), I could assume my 1RM would be around 185 lbs (120/65%), and therefore could go with a max hang baseline of 155 (185*85%).

Thoughts? Anyone have experience or personal data they can share regarding their delta between repeaters & max hangs?

[scojo]

Wow. I was going to suggest just considering the test part of your training for that day and go climbing/training after the test, because I think the test has some training value. Then I re-read the guide and see that he wants you to take two rest days before and after the test.

Personally, I would be hesitant to base my training weight off of some percentage calculation, which may not be very precise. But if other people have data that backs up this calculation, then I’d feel more confident in this approach.

Is anyone aware if Steve Maisch has ever written a more extensive description explaining the reasoning behind the details of the programming? I never really understood why the progression is to increase the number of sets, retest, repeat rather than keeping the number of sets the same and increasing the weight upon successful completion of the sets.

[daustin]

Dec 3, 2016 20:16:10 GMT -7 scojo said:

Is anyone aware if Steve Maisch has ever written a more extensive description explaining the reasoning behind the details of the programming? I never really understood why the progression is to increase the number of sets, retest, repeat rather than keeping the number of sets the same and increasing the weight upon successful completion of the sets.

Yeah, I actually posted about this exact thing in a thread in the Physical Training (General) forum. Seems counterintuitive to me that the progression approach would be about increasing TUT instead of intensity.

No disrespect to Maisch, but his blog post on this topic -- like a lot of climbing training writing -- leaves me wanting for a bit more clarity and rationale.

[Lundy]

I can't speak to why the protocol is setup this way, but I've been doing it for most of the last year, and it absolutely works. I think part of it has to do with the fact that once you're really working super hard on max hangs, adding pounds is actually very difficult. It's quite hard to imagine adding 5 pounds after each max hang workout, so TUT is really the only way to provide some sort of increased load that the fingers need to adapt to.

Also, note that doing his protocol the test days can actually be a bigger workout than some of the other days, so I would just program it in like normal. Along those lines, his one day hangboard followed by two days of rest is exactly consistent with what RCTM recommends, so not sure why it would feel like more rest and losing training time. In fact, I've found that even completing two cycles of his protocol (so eight workouts: test, 4 reps, 5 reps, 6 reps x 2) is really hard and felt brutal on the fingers, even while resting two days after each workout.

I have two sick kids in the house now, so not gonna dig around too much, but I seem to remember somewhere on Steve's website he has references to a lot of the research he's read that informs his protocols, so might be worth finding them and going to the source if you have more questions... Maybe Alexandra has some experience with this research from her weight lifting background, where someone developed a similar protocol where you stay at the same weight for three or four workouts but add an extra rep?

[daustin]

Dec 3, 2016 21:13:18 GMT -7 Lundy said:

Also, note that doing his protocol the test days can actually be a bigger workout than some of the other days, so I would just program it in like normal. Along those lines, his one day hangboard followed by two days of rest is exactly consistent with what RCTM recommends, so not sure why it would feel like more rest and losing training time. In fact, I've found that even completing two cycles of his protocol (so eight workouts: test, 4 reps, 5 reps, 6 reps x 2) is really hard and felt brutal on the fingers, even while resting two days after each workout.

Yeah, this is part of my concern. I'm trying a new program, modeled after what forums users Sol Wertkin & JCM posted over in the Physical Training (General) section. Max hangs are part of a workout that starts with hard bouldering, then a max hangs protocol (3 grips, with 3 reps per grip, 1 rep = 10s hang), then limit bouldering. It's a lot, but the intent is to do a relatively low volume max hang protocol that won't be totally draining; hence my reluctance to wreck myself by following Maisch's protocol to the letter. Part of why I like this approach is that I've just completed a fairly standard RCTM repeaters cycle, and am antsy to get back to movement as opposed to just hanging. So, I'm treating the max hangs as more of a supplement as opposed to a main focus, as reflected by the lower TUT.

Since it will be my first time doing max hangs, I don't have any reservations about starting with a super conservative baseline and adjusting as needed, but mostly just wanted to see if anyone here had any data points for me to scour.

[Lundy]

Unfortunately, I can't give you an exact comparison, as I was doing my repeaters with more of a hypertrophy protocol, doing three sets of 8-10 reps per grip. The best estimate I could give you is, if I try to extrapolate from my hypertrophy protocol to the Anderson's max hangs, and then find the difference between where I guess I'd be doing 5 reps to max hangs, it would be about 20 pounds. Take that with a pretty big grain of salt, though...

[solwertkin]

If your looking for some magic conversion for figuring out what to train at with max hangs from your latest repeater workouts, it's not gonna happen. It's a different type of training and your gonna have to put the work it to figure out you baselines. 

I do 3 grips like Maisch, 1/2 crimp small campus rung, middle two open on the rock prodigy, and wide pinch via 4x4 pinch blocks.

2-4 sets per grip. 

I use the bouldering warm up to get me ready to hang, then I use the 1/2 crimp to further warm me up for the heavy hangs:

• 1/2 crimp with body weight or +10 depending on how i'm feeling, min off.
  
• 1/2 crimp with +20, 2 min off.
  
• 1/2 crimp with +40, 3 min off.
• Then it' on, 2-4 sets with +60ish 3-4 min off in-between.  

Remember that these hangs are 10sec at a weight in which you would fail at 12-13, so if your feeling desperate at 6or7s, let go, it' too heavy. 

Less is more. Don't fuck up and get injured. I assume you've been fingerboarding for at least two years with repeaters and your finger are currently 100% healthy, if not, your not ready for max hangs. 

I'm slightly less agressive with intensity/load with my middle two (cuz it's just two fingers).

Sometimes I do this after my limit bouldering cuz I really want to hit the bldrs with full intensity. If so, I cut the bldrin sesh early and then hit it. Sometimes I do the warm up bldrin, do just half crimp, and middle two, then limit bldr, then pinch. 

I dont do retest days. Just dont' have the time to schedule it into my programming. 

Just start with bodyweight and see how it feels. 

[daustin]

Thought I'd update this thread with an update on my max hangs-esque protocol and how it's been going for me so far.

As I mentioned above, and with a gentle reminder from JCM, I'm really focusing on my max hangs protocol as a 2nd priority, supplemental exercise behind limit bouldering. This means I try to keep the volume relatively low for the max hangs workout, since I do it on days where I'm also hard & limit bouldering. Also, since this is my first foray into max hangs, I haven't worried too much about maximizing the intensity and have basically just been experimenting a bit to get the "hang" of it (ba-dum-tsh).

Where I've landed after 4 sessions is:
- 2 grips x 3 sets per grip x 10s hang / 3m rest per set
- For the first grip, I'm actually doing more of a "min edge" protocol per Eva Lopez as opposed to max hangs. I'm using the Transgression board at my gym, and at body weight I'm using the smallest edge I can with a half-crimp grip, such that I feel like I still have another 2-3s left in the tank after a 10s hang (in theory... like I said above, I don't think I'm actually hitting this level of intensity yet)
- For the second grip, I'm doing a front 3F drag on the SVDER on the RPTC. I've been using the deepest part of the SVDER at bodyweight, but this feels too easy so I need to decide whether to move to a shallower depth or to start adding weight to increase the intensity. Leaning towards adding weight

So far, I've noticed feeling stronger on each successive workout, which can't be a bad thing. More importantly, I don't feel overtrained or fatigued when I go from this protocol into limit bouldering. I'm glad I went with the min edge approach, as I think small edges are a big weakness for me, and I feel like the short TUT is more manageable for the min edge hangs than doing repeaters. Hoping I can create some pulp with this protocol!