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Post by rob on Sept 26, 2015 6:42:46 GMT -7
www.climbing.com/gear/climbing-nutrition-creatine-supplement-guide/Just saw this article on creatine use in climbing from Climbing magazine. Found it very interesting and it de-bunks a lot of the issues I've heard about its use. Anyway, I just wanted to bump this thread and get the discussion going on creatine use and see if any more of you guys are using it and what your experiences have been. Back in my younger days when I was "body building" I used creatine briefly but I wasn't training very systematically so it was hard to notice any difference. Since then I haven't used it at all, but it definitely seems like it could be worth experimenting with based on the above article. Do people think its better used during say strength, power, and the intial stages of PE before cutting it to peek? Or just use it straight through?
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Sander
Junior Member
Posts: 61
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Post by Sander on Sept 26, 2015 7:12:23 GMT -7
Being a nearly full-time vegetarian I find supplementing creatine very useful. The weight gain is small, about 1 kg, but the (perceived) strength gains are big! It seems many people respond differently to creatine supplementation. Some gain quite a bit of weight, some don't. Some experience a big strength gain, some don't. For some it helps increasing the workout volume, for others it doesn't. For some it speeds up recovery, for some it doesn't… One way to find out how it works for you
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 28, 2015 15:10:45 GMT -7
Interesting read, thanks for linking! My first thought was, can't they find a more muscular looking photo model for a story on creatine? If creatine will make me look all doughy and skinny I think I'll pass I'm curious to hear peoples' experience with it with respect to power endurance performance (especially on the rock). Anybody got a tantalizing anecdote about it helping them pull off a difficult send?
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Post by jetjackson on Jan 2, 2016 22:24:01 GMT -7
I work in the chemical industry, and in the past I used to call on supplement manufacturers, as we sold them the various ingredients that go into the supplements you see on the shelf at places like GNC. So I see a lot of the things that get put into these supplement products. Also I was involved in a bodybuilding forum in the past, where we had a lot of debate about what worked and what didn't.
From my experience, and discussion on that forum, there are 3 things that work - protein powder, creatine, and caffeine. Everything else is just marketing hype. BCAA, NO etc. etc. Some of it is even dangerous - DiMethylAmylAmine is one that comes to mind that the FDA subsequently fined a bunch of companies over. Most of the stuff you would buy at GNC really just goes towards making expensive urine.
Protein powder, really only worth taking if you are not getting enough protein through your normal day to day diet. If you don't know the answer to that, then you probably haven't tracked your macronutrient intake over the course of a few weeks. You should do that first before you decide to supplement protein. Keeping in mind that too much protein intake crowds out carbohydrate calories, robbing you of a better form of energy for exercise.
Creatine - it works, depends on your goals as to whether it's worth using. I read the above post and it claims a 20% increase in power. I'd be interested to see if someone could load up on creatine for a week, and then suddenly Hangboard on the same hold with 20% more weight added. I.e. go from 160lb BW on a hold, to hanging BW+32lbs - without any other training. Ideally, you would do a series of HB workouts up until the point where you are plateauing on most holds. Then load on creatine for a week and see if that bumps you up 20% from that previous plateau. The article above actually cites research which casts doubt on creatines ability to increase strength in the forearms, but the writer passes this off as insignificant because it at least helps the shoulders back etc. IMO, as forearms and grip strength are the limiting factor, increasing your weight in your entire body by 5-10 pounds wouldn't be worth it - unless the above experiment worked - I might consider doing it in my next HB cycle.
Caffeine - this ones pretty self-explanatory, and doesn't seem to have many negative side effects.
One thing I've noticed is that many people who want to supplement, could easily improve their training in numerous other ways that would benefit them more than taking a supplement. They seem to be looking for the easy way out, the silver bullet etc. Here's some suggestions for improving performance before supplementing;
- Actually follow the training program - no skipping workouts - Get > 8 hours sleep each night, even get an extra hour in here or there to aid in recovery - Eat a healthy balanced diet - Stop drinking alcohol
I'd hazard a guess that most people taking supplements have not already exhausted those avenues.
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alex
New Member
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Post by alex on Jan 3, 2016 5:33:36 GMT -7
Very interesting information on that topic. I totally agree with jetjackson! For me taking supplements is not even an option. I dont diet and i eat vegetarian. My point is: I still see big improvements in strength and overall climbing performance. If your body lacks protein (or you think it does) another easy, possible improvement is to eat more protein rich food. Might be a bit harder if you are on diet but there is a solution for sure. It will require some information but you are also investing alot of time in informing about supplements. Especially for people eating meat it shouldnt be too much of a problem to utilize high-grade protein. I am eating vegetarian for a couple of years now and i feel like it improved my recovery time significantly. Even when i did a lot of body-weight strength training (gaining muscle mass) i never had the impression that my body lacks protein. I saw a very interesting video with Alex Honnold these days. He is also talking about dieting, supplements and co. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncDFDz9k35o
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 3, 2016 9:36:52 GMT -7
Great post, especially this part: ...One thing I've noticed is that many people who want to supplement, could easily improve their training in numerous other ways that would benefit them more than taking a supplement. They seem to be looking for the easy way out, the silver bullet etc. Here's some suggestions for improving performance before supplementing; - Actually follow the training program - no skipping workouts - Get > 8 hours sleep each night, even get an extra hour in here or there to aid in recovery - Eat a healthy balanced diet - Stop drinking alcohol I'd hazard a guess that most people taking supplements have not already exhausted those avenues.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 5, 2016 21:36:27 GMT -7
I just read this thread and now I am wondering also about creatine... I am not sure if any other person on that forum is a woman, but if so (or if you know any female taking creatine), i would like to hear about your experience with it. Being petite, my muscles are naturally small and even though at this point I consider myself pretty muscular, I always feel that my strength gains come very slow and with a lot of effort. Since I do not skip workouts, I sleep a lot, eat a balanced diet and do not drink, I am thinking that perhaps I should give creatine a shot. I am already taking fish oil and BCAA Amino blends for a while now, and supplement my fairly rich in protein diet with an extra 7-14 grams of protein from protein powder, usually before my workouts. I am on the fence on whether or not I would like to gain 5 lbs in a week so I wanted to see what other "smaller" people have experienced both in strength gains and weight gains.
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Post by jessebruni on Mar 7, 2016 11:15:53 GMT -7
Since I do not skip workouts, I sleep a lot, eat a balanced diet and do not drink, I am thinking that perhaps I should give creatine a shot. Whether you decide to take creatine or not, if the first half of that sentence doesn't change you'll be outclimbing all of us within 3 years either way.
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Post by jetjackson on Mar 7, 2016 16:10:04 GMT -7
I just read this thread and now I am wondering also about creatine... I am not sure if any other person on that forum is a woman, but if so (or if you know any female taking creatine), i would like to hear about your experience with it. Being petite, my muscles are naturally small and even though at this point I consider myself pretty muscular, I always feel that my strength gains come very slow and with a lot of effort. Since I do not skip workouts, I sleep a lot, eat a balanced diet and do not drink, I am thinking that perhaps I should give creatine a shot. I am already taking fish oil and BCAA Amino blends for a while now, and supplement my fairly rich in protein diet with an extra 7-14 grams of protein from protein powder, usually before my workouts. I am on the fence on whether or not I would like to gain 5 lbs in a week so I wanted to see what other "smaller" people have experienced both in strength gains and weight gains. You could try my suggestion below during your next hangboarding phase - otherwise it would be hard to determine whether you would have any discernible results. How is your climbing progress going otherwise? Creatine - it works, depends on your goals as to whether it's worth using. I read the above post and it claims a 20% increase in power. I'd be interested to see if someone could load up on creatine for a week, and then suddenly Hangboard on the same hold with 20% more weight added. I.e. go from 160lb BW on a hold, to hanging BW+32lbs - without any other training. Ideally, you would do a series of HB workouts up until the point where you are plateauing on most holds. Then load on creatine for a week and see if that bumps you up 20% from that previous plateau. The article above actually cites research which casts doubt on creatines ability to increase strength in the forearms, but the writer passes this off as insignificant because it at least helps the shoulders back etc. IMO, as forearms and grip strength are the limiting factor, increasing your weight in your entire body by 5-10 pounds wouldn't be worth it - unless the above experiment worked - I might consider doing it in my next HB cycle.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 8, 2016 9:34:55 GMT -7
perhaps I will try that my next cycle. At the moment, I am still finishing my first HB cycle, I should be done in a week and then transition to power. so i have no idea how my climbing is progressing since I haven't climbed much:(As far as Hang board is going, I have progressed in all the holds except for the two pinches, where i have pretty much failed to complete the same weight since HB#3! I just can't seem to be able to hold on to them, so it would be interesting to see if some creatine loading would do the trick...
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Post by jetjackson on Mar 8, 2016 9:58:55 GMT -7
perhaps I will try that my next cycle. At the moment, I am still finishing my first HB cycle, I should be done in a week and then transition to power. so i have no idea how my climbing is progressing since I haven't climbed much:(As far as Hang board is going, I have progressed in all the holds except for the two pinches, where i have pretty much failed to complete the same weight since HB#3! I just can't seem to be able to hold on to them, so it would be interesting to see if some creatine loading would do the trick... Cool! Sounds like you have had solid performance on a lot of holds. On the pinches, next time I would drop 20 pounds off the weight you were plateauing on at HB#3, so that you are back at that point at HB#4 next time. Also, importance of pinches depends on your goal routes and where you are headed for performance phase. If pinches are a priority, prioritize them earlier in your HB set.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 8, 2016 10:05:52 GMT -7
unfortunately, pinches are a priority since i pretty much only boulder and they come up a lot on many problems. They were always my weakness so I am glad I get to work on them. While, for example, my baseline on the small semi-closed crimp has gone up to -5 lbs (so I would do the first set -5 lbs and the second set +5lbs), my narrow pinch is at -25lbs and still failing! It is my last grip on the set, so perhaps I will try to move it up on the next could of HB sessions and see if that changes anything...
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Post by jetjackson on Mar 8, 2016 11:53:43 GMT -7
unfortunately, pinches are a priority since i pretty much only boulder and they come up a lot on many problems. They were always my weakness so I am glad I get to work on them. While, for example, my baseline on the small semi-closed crimp has gone up to -5 lbs (so I would do the first set -5 lbs and the second set +5lbs), my narrow pinch is at -25lbs and still failing! It is my last grip on the set, so perhaps I will try to move it up on the next could of HB sessions and see if that changes anything... I find it helps - I also separate the two holds, because of the intense strain it puts on the thumb, I'll throw in 3 or so other grips in between, to give my thumbs a break. The difference between your pinch and crimp don't surprise me. I think the pinch relies more on muscle than tendon strength.
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Post by joecoov on Apr 21, 2016 16:04:01 GMT -7
I am not against supplements, but all could benefit from some information before you jump on the supplement bandwagon: Many supplements with creatine combo it with caffeine. Little research has been done on a caffeine and creatine combo, however the small number of studies have showed caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading (1,2). Supplement companies typically put caffeine and other Central nervous stimulants in supplements so that users think they are working. Another form of creatine, creatine ethyl ester has been sold at a higher price, and with bold promises of muscle gain. Little research has been done, however the few studies that have been conducted, concluded creatine monohydrate is the preferred source for supplementation. (3,4) Creatine has not been shown to help low intensity/long interval training, and studies have shown minimal improvement in running, swimming, or jumping performance (3). One theory is that the increase in muscle mass may actually inhibit the performance of these activities (4). So if multipitch is your niche, it may hurt performance. On the other hand: It is evident that caffeine supplementation provides an ergogenic response for sustained aerobic efforts in moderate-to-highly trained endurance athletes. The research is more varied, however, when pertaining to bursts of high-intensity maximal efforts (5). Therefore caffeine may not help with bouldering. Caffeine exerts a greater ergogenic effect when consumed in an anhydrous state as compared to coffee (5). A theory is that there are substances in the coffee that may cause a decrease in this effect. No one regulates supplements to ensure the package contains what’s on the ingredients label. Contamination, false labeling, and incomplete labeling are not uncommon problems — as are significant discrepancies in disintegration, dissolution, and in vitro release characteristics of various dietary supplements (6,7). -Joe 1. Vandenberghe, K., Gillis, N., Van Leemputte, M., Van Hecke, P., Vanstapel, F., & Hespel, P. (1996). Modification Of The Ergogenic Effects Of Creatine Loading By Caffeine. Journal of Applied Physiology, 80(2), 452-457. Retrieved August 9, 2011, from www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/89295832. Trexler ET, Smith-Ryan AE. Creatine and Caffeine: Considerations for Conback-issues Supplementation. IJSNEM International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism 2015;25(6):607–623. doi:10.1123/ijsnem.2014-0193. 3. Spillane, M., Schoch, R., Cooke, M., Harvey, T., Greenwood, M., Kreider, R., & Willoughby, D. S. (2009). The effects of creatine ethyl ester supplementation combined with heavy resistance training on body composition, muscle performance, and serum and muscle creatine levels. J Int Soc Sports Nutr Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, 6(1), 6. doi:10.1186/1550-2783-6-6 4. B., V., S., V., & D. (1998). Effects of creatine monohydrate ingestion in sedentary and weight-trained older adults. Acta Physiol Scand Acta Physiologica Scandinavica, 164(2), 147-155. doi:10.1046/j.1365-201x.1998.00427.x 5. Goldstein ER, Ziegenfuss T, Kalman D, et al. International society of sports nutrition position stand: caffeine and performance. J Int Soc Sports Nutr Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2010;7(1):5. doi:10.1186/1550-2783-7-5. 6. Larimore WL, Oʼmathúna DP. Quality Assessment Programs for Dietary Supplements. The Annals of Pharmacotherapy 2003;37:893–898. doi:10.1345/aph.1d031. 7. Thuyne WV, Eenoo PV, Delbeke FT. Nutritional supplements: prevalence of use and contamination with doping agents. Nutrition Research Reviews NRR 2006;19(01):147. doi:10.1079/nrr2006122.
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Post by jetjackson on Apr 21, 2016 17:44:14 GMT -7
Bonus points for the references!
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