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Post by Chris W on Jun 3, 2015 5:00:11 GMT -7
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Post by Chris W on Jun 3, 2015 5:04:20 GMT -7
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Post by joev9 on Jun 3, 2015 8:22:34 GMT -7
One thing I read that was interesting is to not use mouthwash before or after ingesting nitrate as that will kill the bacteria that convert the nitrate to nitrite. This could explain anecdotal stories of it not working for some people...
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Post by rob on Jun 3, 2015 9:57:33 GMT -7
One thing I read that was interesting is to not use mouthwash before or after ingesting nitrate as that will kill the bacteria that convert the nitrate to nitrite. This could explain anecdotal stories of it not working for some people... I read the same thing. Regular spitting also has the same effect, reduces the available bacteria.
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Post by joev9 on Jun 3, 2015 11:44:43 GMT -7
Damn it, I love spitting....
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adam
New Member
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Post by adam on Jun 24, 2015 21:19:31 GMT -7
Where are people buying beet juice? I don't see it at the typical grocery store.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jun 25, 2015 9:34:24 GMT -7
What are you saying, there isn't a huge demand for beet juice among the general public?
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Post by rob on Jun 25, 2015 14:22:34 GMT -7
What are you saying, there isn't a huge demand for beet juice among the general public? In America maybe, but I was surprised to see all of my local supermarkets sell it here in the UK! Asda sells it which is the uk version of Wall Mart, maybe try there? And as an update on my experience of drinking the stuff ive had good results (I think). All of the evidence is circumstantial and could purely be the result of hard training, but I'm continuing with it. I started drinking it just after HB workout 8 (in which I felt like I was plateauing), and in workout 9&10 I improved on every grip and hit PRs on most, I then went out and climbed for the first time in 6 weeks (5weeks of HB and 1 week rest prior) and onsighted my first 5.12 with ease, despite doing no endurance work for that long. Since then I've felt like I now recover better from workouts something ive always struggled with)... Again there is no way to say drinking beet juice had any effect whatsoever on these things, but they coincided, and the multiple health benefits of the stuff aside from those linked to Nitrate are enough to keep me drinking it. The one downside, which, unfortunately corroborates Chris W's post, is that it does have some interesting effects upon return, if you get what I mean!
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jun 29, 2015 11:08:11 GMT -7
And as an update on my experience of drinking the stuff ive had good results (I think). All of the evidence is circumstantial and could purely be the result of hard training, but I'm continuing with it.
See, that's the problem. Now you're going to be stuck drinking beet juice for the rest of your career, when it may just be a coincidence
I started taking Glucosamine almost 15 years ago. I started training around the same time. I stopped getting finger injuries, so I still take Glucosamine twice a day, every day, despite having no idea if it works.
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Post by rob on Jun 29, 2015 14:32:40 GMT -7
True... Dammit! 30 years worth of beet juice ahead then I guess.
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Post by jetjackson on Feb 19, 2016 14:46:11 GMT -7
American Chemical Society did an article this month about sports performance supplements. In it the reference a study on beets, that found runners had a 5% increased performance in the last 1.8km of a 5k race. The mechanism is explained as Nitric Oxide is a vasodilator, which relaxes blood vessels, increasing their diameter, allowing them to shuttle more glycogen and oxygen to the muscles. Could it be that roasted beets stave off the dreaded pump?
Interestingly, they used whole beetroots, rather than beet juice - I can't get the full access to see why. - article is here -http://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i6/Athletes-Look-Sports-Nutrition-Products.html
Still, as I have mentioned in another thread, it's pretty useless supplementing with fads unless your diet is already rock solid! The article has a quote that I wanted to pull;
At the University of Nebraska, a team of three sports nutritionists councils the school’s 560 athletes on how to best use foods and supplements and avoid banned substances. “We’re a food-first place. I don’t even talk about other supplements until I know their diet is solid,” says Lindsey Remmers, Nebraska’s director of sports nutrition.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 19, 2016 20:10:18 GMT -7
...runners had a 5% increased performance in the last 1.8km of a 5k race. The mechanism is explained as Nitric Oxide is a vasodilator, which relaxes blood vessels, increasing their diameter, allowing them to shuttle more glycogen and oxygen to the muscles. Could it be that roasted beets stave off the dreaded pump? So, does that mean it had a negligible effect during the first 3.2k? Supposing it does, and it takes ~15 min to run a 5k, that would suggest it has no effect for the first 10 min. So maybe not useful for bouldering, but helpful for 10+ minute efforts?
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Post by jetjackson on Feb 19, 2016 22:18:31 GMT -7
It mentioned that there was negligible effect during the first part of the run.
I tend to agree, that this would favour power endurance efforts over bouldering.
I think measuring it in terms of minutes may not be the best way to look at it. It may be better to think of it in terms of effort? The mechanism came into effect after 10-15 minutes into the 5km run, however that could just be due to most people hitting that lactic acid threshold at 3km. Assuming people hit the lactic acid threshold earlier in climbing, due to the higher effort associated with climbing, then could it not be beneficial for even shorter 3-5 minute efforts?
My knowledge of the theory around this is fuzzy, I'm just throwing out ideas here.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 20, 2016 8:46:13 GMT -7
When I raced I would say I was at or slightly below the anaerobic threshold for essentially the entire 5k, except maybe the last 1-2 minutes. I was never super great, but still I doubt that someone could exceed the anaerobic threshold for 2k. That's on the order of 6 minutes even for a good runner. Still, the glycolytic pathway is used during the entire effort, but once you exceed the MSS it becomes a much more significant contributor to ATP production.
That said, based on the vasodilation comment, I would guess it has more to do with the sensation of feeling "pumped". That is something you would rarely if ever experience during a long-distance run since the legs are so highly vascular. Obviously climbers experience a forearm pump all the time, so if Nitric Oxide really does improve blood flow in the forearms, that would be awesome.
One other question I wonder about is, the classic theory about the forearm pump is that muscle contraction within the forearms occludes blood flow by constricting the blood vessels. I think in distance running occlusion is less of a problem based on duty cycle and the rate of muscular recruitment. For climbing, I don't see how relaxing blood vessels in the forearm would help that occlusion problem while occlusion is happening. But it might help at other times (such as when shaking at a rest, when the duty cycle is probably low enough that vasodilation could be helpful).
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russ
New Member
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Post by russ on Feb 23, 2016 15:04:31 GMT -7
I read through the ACS article, as well as the referenced article (I have access through my post-doc position). Interesting stuff. A few clarifications on the baked-beet study: * The study was explicitly trying to see if baked beets could improve performance, as compared to previous studies with pills or beet juice. Baking does not lessen nitrate concentrations. * The study was on 5 men and 6 women, so small sample size. The participants were in fairly good shape, exercising ~300min/week. The 5k times ranged from 19.9min-35.5min * The study attempted to be as blinded as possible, though with limitations. The control group was dosed with cranberry relish, trying to match the energy value of the 200g of baked beets. The participants could taste the difference between beets and cranberry, but weren’t informed that beets/nitrates were the object of the study (though they were told to avoid nitrate-rich food beforehand)
The participants warmed up on a treadmill, then initially set the pace to one they though they could maintain for the 5k, with the task of finishing in as little time as possible. The participants were then retested a week later, with the alternative treatment (those who were initially in the beet group got cranberry, and vice versa). The technicians set the initial pace of the 2nd run to match that of the 1st. The participants could increase or decrease speed, but got no data on time or pace, just distance. The study noted velocity, heart rate, and perceived effort after 1 mi, 2mi, and 3.1mi.
They highlighted the last 1.8 km section because it was the only comparison with statistical significance (p=0.02 with a paired t-test). The overall 5k time improvement was not significant, but close (p=0.06). The 3% improvement would correspond to 41sec for the whole 5k. Basically, the beet group may have run faster in the last 1.8km because they felt fresher (lower perceived effort in the first part of the race let them run faster later on).
Here is their limitations section quoted directly:
My takeaway is that it maybe helps, but it wasn’t a huge effect, and may not translate to elite climbing. Would need more study to have some kind of idea, though it might be beneficial. The vasoconstriction in the arms during climbing is so different from in the legs in running, maybe it would help more? As for the effort level, the participants averaged (heart rate) in the high 170bpm range after 1mile, mid 180’s after two miles, and above 190 at the end of the 5k. It seems like a fairly well-designed experiment, but necessarily limited in scope/applicability. I actually participated in a clinical trial somewhat like this back when I ran track in college, trying to see if using a machine that simulated higher altitude for an hour a day could improve running performance. It didn’t (I was in the control group anyways).
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