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Post by ehowell on Feb 28, 2018 7:20:08 GMT -7
Hello all,
I've been plodding along nicely and feeling great, only to come down with some medial (golfer's) elbow pain since early February. It's something that I've dealt with in the past, and it always seems to be lurking beneath the surface. I've kept it at bay for the last several years, but I increased my training volume, and in hindsight, went way too hard for the month of January and into February.
So, I've continued to climb/train as climbers often do, and I'm torn (pun!!) on whether that's a bad choice or not. The condition seems stable (little to no pain outside of climbing save for the occasional door pull or the like) and manageable pain when I climb. I'm even able to limit boulder with moderate pain. I'd actually say the middle to lower level stuff is more aggravating, similar to what Dave Macleod states in "Make or Break". I'm stretching, massaging (deep), and doing all the eccentric exercises.
For massage, what are the thoughts out there on ArmAid? It's nearly $100, and with my frugality, anything over $20 usually results in heavy analytics! I regularly use the TheraCane, which I love, so I'm wondering if this tool, along with a lacrosse ball, will achieve the same results as the ArmAid.
Basically, I'm really psyched on my training progress thus far this winter and really can't stomach taking significant time away if not necessary (I've taken 3 weeks off for golfer's elbow in the past to come back and have the exact same problems). Any train-through-it success stories or product/rehab protocol reviews to share? I'm sure plenty of us will benefit from the discussion.
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Post by Charlie S on Feb 28, 2018 8:10:23 GMT -7
Suck it up and buy the Armaid. I had the same issues and debated long and hard over whether or not the $100 was worth it.
It's worth it. 2-5 minutes every night, vs. up to 30 minutes or more using other massaging or stretching techniques. Compound that over a week and you see the time savings immediately. Also, the Armaid is far more effective.
And now, I'm essentially "cured." I have to do maintenance massaging during power phases or after a day of hard lock offs, but for the most part, I'm now down to maybe 1 or 2 times per week.
I personally like the orange roller, because it lets me dig in deep into the elbow. I have a climbing buddy who prefers the regular white 3-ball roller instead. I find general massaging is good with the 3-ball, and the orange roller is good for targeted, trigger point massage.
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Post by scojo on Feb 28, 2018 8:22:16 GMT -7
I didn't think there was anything magical about the Armaid, but personally I've never seen anything other than temporary relief from any type of massaging.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 28, 2018 11:10:38 GMT -7
Generally I find time-off for chronic conditions is not helpful. At most, take about a week off, but I think you can do well without taking time off at all. The key IME (in addition to the rehab activities like stretching, massage, etc), is to identify moves/styles/activities that aggravate the injury and avoid those things. Sounds like you've already noticed opening doors can cause sudden pain--I think that's the sort of thing that is most damaging, because you aren't warmed up at all. So, think about ways to eliminate those types of random stressors.
In your climbing, I would avoid really steep things, hard lock-offs, etc that aggravate your elbow(s). Note YMMV as far as what types/styles of climbing aggravate your elbows. For me, it's usually dynos on steep terrain, deep lock-offs, and powerful underclings. If I have a flare up I can transition to techy/vert climbing and my elbows recover just fine, even with periodic campusing thrown in.
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Post by tetrault on Feb 28, 2018 11:32:18 GMT -7
As far as the armaid goes, I have never used one, but I have used the option that is in my cheapskate price range - a tennis ball. Not sure if it will help, but easy enough to give it a try in addition to the much more useful advice posted earlier. Forearm Self Massage: youtu.be/3oBLV-Na9vQ
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Post by daustin on Feb 28, 2018 21:00:32 GMT -7
How have you kept it at bay in the past?
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Post by climbnkev on Feb 28, 2018 22:14:09 GMT -7
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Post by ehowell on Mar 1, 2018 6:35:41 GMT -7
Thanks guys.
Mark: Good to hear. That's been my MO so far -- still keeping the intensity fairly high while reducing volume, and trying to identify what I can get away with. Ultimately, the my goal route is damn bouldery and involves a burly undercling move! Luckily it won't be in season for another few weeks to a month, so I'm hoping I can start to get this under control without throwing out my season's plans. Of course, I'm willing to do that if this condition continues to worsen, as the route isn't going anywhere and I don't want this puppy to get chronic.
Tetrault: Yep, this is basically what I'm doing now for massage, although I find the tennis ball to be too soft. I use a TheraCane (worth every penny, had it for about 4 years now) and a lacrosse ball or golf ball to dig in deep. It works really well in some spots, but I could see the ArmAid or the like better at targeting some difficult spots. Plus, using a lacrosse ball annoys the hell out of my wife when we're watching TV, because I'm spread all over the coffee table like a freak. At least with something like the ArmAid, I could sit back with some sort of relative normalcy.
Climbnkev: I've seen that. Any impressions from those that have used both? I was thinking that ArmAid may be better as a targeted trigger point device, but have no idea(?).
Daustin: Good question! My first bad episode of this was within a year or two of starting climbing. I think (know) my technique was shit and my posture has always been shit. Muscle imbalances and mobility continue to be a nagging weakness for me despite my best efforts, and I believe my on-and-off-again shoulder and elbow issues are ultimately due to postural issues and mobility in my shoulders and upper torso. However, this time I definitely am attributing my increase in high intensity training to the issue. I was training hard 4-5 days/week for the month of January as a bit of an experiment, and it caught up to me. In particular, I was out of town and wanted to get a HB workout in on my portable Flash board in a YMCA. I'm pretty sure that I didn't warm up very well and probably flared it on that particular session. On my next wall session, I immediately noticed a sharp pain on my first warm-up problem.
One final question on acute vs chronic: A lot of folks will say to step in with eccentrics immediately, but Esther Smith and some others say that eccentrics should not be conducted until the condition is determined to be chronic, after 6-8 weeks. I'm inclined to be doing eccentrics now (~4 weeks in), and I have been, but I'm worried I'm making the condition worse. To further compound the confusion, Dave Macleod mentions that eccentrics will make the condition worse for several weeks before improving, so perhaps I'm on the right track. All I can remember from years ago (didn't take notes then on anything) was that I took 3 weeks off, it didn't work, and I went back to climbing and did antagonist exercises, and it eventually subsided.
Thanks!
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Post by climbnkev on Mar 1, 2018 7:55:13 GMT -7
The Rolflexis a better tool in my opinion although my use of the Armaid is limited.
Unfortunately I think your current approach is going to lead to more problems. Maintaining volume and reducing intensity is the only way to get past these types of issues. If you are already to the point where opening doors is painful you are in deep. You can play Russian roulette with Lateral epicondilitis, but medial is a real issue and can easily derail an entire season, year, or climber. Good luck with your recovery.
As far as eccentrics I think that the flexbar is the ultimate tool for this.
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Post by ehowell on Mar 1, 2018 14:08:07 GMT -7
I appreciate the honest feedback. I'm able to find tons of information on rehab procedures, but not much has been written on how best to handle your climbing and training.
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Post by jetjackson on Mar 1, 2018 20:18:37 GMT -7
I didn't think there was anything magical about the Armaid, but personally I've never seen anything other than temporary relief from any type of massaging. I own the armaid and I'm in this boat - having said that, I've never had really bad elbows to the point where I feel serious pain in them where I would feel it opening a door. Maybe the armaid has more of an effect with that kind of pain. Generally I'll do the reverse wrist curls etc., with a dumbell. There is conflicting info out there though - about whether you do the eccentric and concentric, or just the eccentric part of that exercise. Anyway, bottom line, I don't think my issue has been significant enough to the point where I could say using the armaid has helped.
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Post by ehowell on Mar 2, 2018 6:11:06 GMT -7
So I ponied up for the Rolflexis. I’ll report back.
I want to clarify a bit on pain levels. In general, even the most alarming moves, are probably registering no higher than 5 out of 10 on a very subjective scale. In general, when I say I feel pain opening a door, we’re talking pain levels of 1 or 2. The fact that I’m feeling anything is a concern to me. But if I was constantly feeling pain at rest or experiencing sharp and severe pain in daily activities, I wouldn’t be considering a “climb through it” approach.
Also, I think it’s fascinating to experience the psychology of pain and how it varies throughout the day depending on diet, life stress (this is a big one), sleep, time of day, etc. Pain has to be put in context, which is a real challenge as it’s never linear.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Mar 2, 2018 14:22:23 GMT -7
Also, I think it’s fascinating to experience the psychology of pain and how it varies throughout the day depending on diet, life stress (this is a big one), sleep, time of day, etc. Pain has to be put in context, which is a real challenge as it’s never linear. Agreed. Totally OT and TMI, but I underwent an unplanned root canal on Monday. The pain in my mouth leading up to it (and the pain of the aftermath since) has varied drastically depending on the situation. For example, while climbing I don't feel anything at all. When attempting to sleep, the pain was/is impossible to ignore. The day I decided I needed to got to the dentist I was driving home from the crag and had to pull over because I thought I might pass out from the pain. An hour earlier I was on the sharp end and didn't feel anything at all.
I look at it like a "Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs" deal, where your brain has to prioritize attention. I think that's why climbing is so unusually addicting--the danger element and total focus required sweeps everything else away. That is increasingly difficult to do these days.
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Post by jrblack on Mar 5, 2018 22:16:49 GMT -7
Also, I think it’s fascinating to experience the psychology of pain and how it varies throughout the day depending on diet, life stress (this is a big one), sleep, time of day, etc. Pain has to be put in context, which is a real challenge as it’s never linear. Agreed. Totally OT and TMI, but I underwent an unplanned root canal on Monday. The pain in my mouth leading up to it (and the pain of the aftermath since) has varied drastically depending on the situation. For example, while climbing I don't feel anything at all. When attempting to sleep, the pain was/is impossible to ignore. The day I decided I needed to got to the dentist I was driving home from the crag and had to pull over because I thought I might pass out from the pain. An hour earlier I was on the sharp end and didn't feel anything at all.
I look at it like a "Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs" deal, where your brain has to prioritize attention. I think that's why climbing is so unusually addicting--the danger element and total focus required sweeps everything else away. That is increasingly difficult to do these days.
I have noticed this phenomenon as well, but my theory (which has no scientific foundation) is that increased bloodflow and endorphin release mitigates pain. I've always noticed that exercise relieves pain, provided it's not exercise that directly increases impact of what's hurting. But I am not at all surprised that your toothache was relieved by climbing and not by driving or trying to fall asleep. I have random bilateral hip pain (which is not arthritis, and has something to do with a systemic pain issue) and I know for certain that going climbing or swimming will make it go away. I hate having hip pain, but exercise as an elixir is much better than using drugs or alcohol to treat it.
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richb
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by richb on Mar 16, 2018 11:29:39 GMT -7
ehowell how is your course of eccentrics going? I am in a very similar situation to where you were when you started this thread, and I just started doing eccentrics following Macleod. It's kind of hard to know if it's working - all I notice is that there's a dull ache in my forearm to go with the sharp pain at my medial epicondyle.
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