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Post by Tom on Jul 5, 2017 10:16:47 GMT -7
Hi Guys,
I'm switching some things up for the miserable summer months. I've had lame hangboard seasons the last two summers, so i figured I might as well try something different this year...
I'm giving the non-linear program in Bechtel's new book a try. I suffer in the attic on my woody for a bit, then rotate through 4 grips x 3 sets of the 3-6-9 protocol.
I'm not feeling the same thrashing as I get after the RPTP repeaters, but it's alot easier to finish the sets in my hot attic.
Anyone else try this?
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Post by srossabi42 on Jul 7, 2017 12:59:37 GMT -7
I haven't tried this, i'd be interested in hearing how it went when you've finished. when he says "on a 45 second clock" does that mean you do 3 s hang, 9 s rest, 6 s hang, 9 s rest, 9 s hang, 9 s rest (45 s total), then move to the next grip?
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Post by climbnkev on Jul 7, 2017 19:03:35 GMT -7
I've done several seasons using the 3,6,9 protocol. It's great for the beginning of a non-linear cycle, but usually replaced with a max hang workout for the second half of a 12 week cycle. It's what I always default to when recovering from an injury or ramping up my training.
The important thing is to actually follow the plan. Your overload should be coaxed through increasing sets and duration (3,6,9,12) not through increasing weight in any given cycle. It is based on the ladder principle of progression, increasing intensity through TUT. If used as a pseudo max hang protocol I have found the results less than optimal.
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Post by climbnkev on Jul 8, 2017 5:21:05 GMT -7
I haven't tried this, i'd be interested in hearing how it went when you've finished. when he says "on a 45 second clock" does that mean you do 3 s hang, 9 s rest, 6 s hang, 9 s rest, 9 s hang, 9 s rest (45 s total), then move to the next grip? No, it would be 3 sec hang, 42 sec rest. 6-39, then 9-36. Then right back to 3-42 with your next grip. I usually go with a 30 sec cycle: 3-27,6-24,9-21 If doing 3,6,9 in an integrated strength workout it's more of a 3-7,6-24,9 because of the long rest after your third hang.
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Post by jwills on Jul 15, 2017 5:37:28 GMT -7
i've been following a nonlinear program for the last few years and this year i've added the ladder program into the mix. overall i've continued to see progression in my climbing regardless of if I'm on a nonlinear or block periodized plan.
i've really been a fan of pavel and dan john and have been abiding by pavel's training principles: train as heavy as possible, train as often as possible, train as fresh as possible.
With that in mind I think the ladders program fits well into a nonlinear program. It's quick and easy to add the hangboard session onto the back end of a bouldering day if you cut bouldering short by 15-20 minutes. I don't feel wiped out after the sessions and do see that my objective strength (judged within the ladders program) has increased. Do I get "stronger" with the ladders program compared to repeaters or max hangs...no idea. Subjectively I don't feel weaker that's for sure. I do though feel more balanced in my climbing and general fitness. This probably is a byproduct of the nonlinear program and not just the ladders hangboarding.
Overall I'd say that if a person is following a nonlinear plan it's a really good consideration. I wouldn't suggest the ladders program as a person's only strength workout in a strict block periodized plan.
Also, I was always a bit confused as well by "on a 45 second clock"... I have always taken this to mean 45ish seconds for all 3 hangs. I definitely don't rest 42 seconds after my 3 second hangs...more like 10-20 seconds. i don't really time my rests but rather go by feel. I probably hover between 45 and 60 seconds for a full 3-6-9 ladder.
having tried a number of the popular hangboard protocols (repeaters, ladders, max hangs) I'm becoming more and more convinced that there isn't one "right" or "best" program. What matters most is that it's a part of a person's overall program and the specific one should be chosen based on a person's preferences first and foremost (longer sessions vs shorter session) and next based on overall program design. For me that's shorter sessions (max hangs or ladders) in a nonlinear program and longer ones (repeaters) in a block program.
i'd love to hear others' thoughts on the ladders program as well.
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Post by erick on Jul 15, 2017 13:41:59 GMT -7
Interesting insight jwills. I travel and do guiding for work and some times will be gone for a week or more at a time. I am getting a tension flash board to take with me to do hangs while away to continue training. I'm thinking of using this protocol because it seems really easy to do without the need for anything else other than a place to hang the board. What grips have you been using with this protocol?
eric
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Post by jwills on Jul 16, 2017 5:39:55 GMT -7
Hey Eric. I train the pinch, MR 2 finger pocket and an open hand edge. I used to train the half crimp but kept getting sore elbows and inflamed fingers (? tenosynovitis) from including it so recently have elected to keep it out.
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Post by gargano on Sept 7, 2017 13:09:59 GMT -7
I've used the 3-6-9 protocol for about two training seasons. I transitioned to it while I was recovering from medial epicondylitis in both elbows. It's a great program for recovering from an injury as it focuses primarily on volume. That being said, it didn't offer enough stress for me to build strength or notice any significant gains. As a maintenance or injury recovery protocol I think it would be great, but I've moved away from it for building strength.
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Post by jonfrisby on Sept 7, 2017 14:14:23 GMT -7
Erick you are strong enough that doing 369 at bodyweight on any of the tension holds will be way too easy. I can full crimp the 1/3 inch crimp with like 70 pounds on for max hangs or 30 pounds for repeaters.
ETA: you're stronger than me
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Post by erick on Sept 7, 2017 15:53:02 GMT -7
Erick you are strong enough that doing 369 at bodyweight on any of the tension holds will be way too easy. I can full crimp the 1/3 inch crimp with like 70 pounds on for max hangs or 30 pounds for repeaters.
ETA: you're stronger than me If your hanging +30 on repeaters your stronger than me. So I think I did 6 total workouts with the 3-6-9 protocol. I really like this protocol since it is SUPER simple. I don't know if I would use it in place of the repeaters since I really like them but I absolutely plan to use these to keep my fingers strong while traveling. They worked perfect for that. Dialing in the resistance (especially when doing these in the back country) is the biggest challenge. During my first few sets of 3-6-9 I just keep adding sets till I got where I needed. I landed on 4 sets of these three selected grips. Here were the grips I used, Fully open on the flat .75" - this was too easy, I could probably hang this grip for more than a minute so 3-6-9 was no problem even after 4 sets. On the last few workouts I did of this grip I attached a full Nalgene bottle to myself to increase the resistance. Next time I use the flash board I will do one arm hangs with this edge and just one foot on to adjust the amount of resistance I need. I may do this to the other grips as well when I need more weight.Or I'll step down to the incut .50" edge. I tried this once and it felt too hard to hold fully open but its worth another try. I wish the flash board had an edge between .75" and .50" that would be perfect! Full Crimp .33" - Maybe too easy, but my goal was just to maintain finger fitness with these hangs and I think this did the job. Half Crimp flat .50" - This was really good. probably could be harder but good enough for my uses. In the future for all of these I would probably increase the duration to 3-6-9-12 and drop the sets to 3 and work up from there. I had a 2 hour long "strength assessment" with Steve Bechtel while I was in Lander this summer, which I would highly recommend as I learned SOOOOO much, and I spoke with him about how to do these hangs best. The interesting thing he said to me was that while doing the 3-6-9 as long as I was running close to 70% of max effort (even 60% was good) I would be making gains. For someone like me (over 30) he really does not like the tendency of climbers to dial in their resistance perfectly. He said if your fingers don't feel worked at the end of a workout your still probably ok and getting stronger. If you are failing you have pushed it WAY too far. My fingers felt slightly fatigued at the end of a workout but I could have done much more and he said thats perfect. The goal is LONG term growth without injuries. Eric
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Post by srossabi42 on Sept 8, 2017 12:59:09 GMT -7
Hi Eric, Do you think you will try to stay close to 70% of max effort (and avoid failing) when you go back to doing repeaters? Is the 70% of max effort with the 3-6-9 protocol more of a maintenance strategy? Thanks
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Post by erick on Sept 8, 2017 16:45:47 GMT -7
I think with repeaters its a lot easier push it closer to the edge without injury since you are not anywhere near your max hanging ability. In the past I have always taken the first 5/6 workouts to get to that edge but I think now I will pull back even a little further and try not to max out till workout 8. I think it is probably important to hit the limiter once during a cycle but living there is no good. If I go a full season (usually 9-10 workouts) without hitting the limit I wont be too disappointed because if I learned anything from Steve it was that if you leave something at the table after a workout your still making gains. Don't quote me but I think he even said that some research suggests there is possibly more to be gained from this method.
With the 3-6-9 I will probably be keeping that as more of a maintenance protocol while traveling. I really think it does its job well and its easy to safely progress by just adding volume.
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Post by Lundy on Sept 8, 2017 18:26:11 GMT -7
having tried a number of the popular hangboard protocols (repeaters, ladders, max hangs) I'm becoming more and more convinced that there isn't one "right" or "best" program. What matters most is that it's a part of a person's overall program and the specific one should be chosen based on a person's preferences first and foremost (longer sessions vs shorter session) and next based on overall program design. For me that's shorter sessions (max hangs or ladders) in a nonlinear program and longer ones (repeaters) in a block program. I think this is right, and in some recent media with Steve Bechtel (can't remember where) he says this himself. No protocol is the best, they each have their pros and cons, so he recommends switching between them every roughly 8 weeks or so. But he also stresses that folks should ALWAYS be hangboarding -- he doesn't seem to be a fan of strict/block periodization.
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Post by tetrault on Sept 11, 2017 7:45:01 GMT -7
"if I learned anything from Steve it was that if you leave something at the table after a workout you're still making gains." Also mentioned was the notion of "70%".
Did Steve have any data from his own or his customer's hangboard training to back this up? It certainly sounds great...
Also, did he give a more specific definition of "70%"?
Is this similar to the "30%" that gets thrown around for ARC training? - meaning, yes, 30% of maximum short term effort, but takes near 100% focus and attention to maintain technique for 20-30min? In this case, it seems that performing the workout (ARC) with maximum focus, attention and proper form (efficient climbing) will automatically dictate the "30%" effort - but you have to be trying "hard".
Back to hangboard; is he defining "100%" as purposefully building up psychological stress, screaming, experiencing tunnel vision, etc. before your body uncontrollably rips off the hangboard, possibly landing on your back, as you were 100% committed to the rep?
In that case, as with ARC, it seems that performing a well designed hangboard workout with maximum focus and attention to maintaining proper hang form and a reasonable level of composure would automatically put you near 70% (or maybe even less) when you declare that you have "maxed out" because your shoulders shrug and you grip opens slightly, even though you are trying really "hard".
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Post by jonfrisby on Sept 11, 2017 8:08:50 GMT -7
From his podcast interviews it seems like the 70% figure is a percentage of 1-2 second max, so yes, you can still have failure on the set while only exerting 70% of the force that you could sustain for a super short period. IME, a 5 on 5 off (6 rep) repeater protocol is possible at about 80% of the overall load I use for a 7-10 max hang. I would guess that my 1-2 second max is another 10-20 pounds on a given grip, which puts repeaters in the low-mid 70% of max range. A true 7/3*6 repeater protocol as in the RP manual would probably require right at 70% of my 1 second max. Steve says that it's better to undertrain by 10% than to overtrain by 1% but I don't take this as him saying you should only be giving 70% of your max effort.
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