mclay
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by mclay on Jan 20, 2017 1:48:20 GMT -7
I am into my 5th RCTM training cycle and currently doing my second intermediate HB phase. With a new calendar year I've been reviewing past training data and setting new goals. I noticed a trend in my HB data that also happened again at the end of my first HB workout this week. Regardless of grip order, beginner vs. intermediate, grip size/type, my performance on the last 1-2 grips of a workout diminishes significantly. The obvious conclusion is that fatigue increases throughout any taxing exercise. But with an eye towards the adage "quality over quantity" I'm wondering what the point of doing an extra 1-3 grips if I'm always going to be failing due to flagging "endurance".
A couple of qualifying examples - 3 cycles ago (beginner workout) I was seeing amazing improvement on slopers. In this cycle I moved it to the end of the workout, thinking it is an "easy" grip for me to end on, but now I can't complete a conservative weight-reduced sloper set. Previous cycle (first intermediate cycle) I moved 2-pad 3 finger edge to the last of 6 grips because I had always found that grip to be pretty easy - again it immediately became my worse grip of that cycle. Also, I had narrow pinch as the seventh hold last phase. It was going dreadfully so I dropped it. This phase I moved it to the 4th grip trained and I crushed it on the first workout.
My unscientific sampling points me towards only doing 5 goal-specific grips (crimps/edges) on which I can get more quality attempts (more aggressive adding of weight throughout phase). At this stage of training up to 5 grips per workout seems to be the cut-off for quality attempts.
I started out doing 8 grips with beginner workout. Dropped to 7 grips when I went to intermediate workouts, but switched to 6 mid-phase. Currently I'm doing 6 grips (not counting the warm-up jug).
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Post by jetjackson on Jan 20, 2017 10:29:20 GMT -7
I've found that in the past too.
I've been thinking similar, and leaning towards limiting it to 6 grips this cycle, excluding warm up. Large VDER, IM 2F, Wide Pinch, Thin crimp, Sloper, 3F open crimp on small VDER.
It's also better from my perspective, as makes the workout shorter. Also means I can do core & strength exercises after.
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Post by daustin on Jan 20, 2017 11:02:03 GMT -7
I've found the same thing, and think about it in 3 ways:
1) Status quo. Keep doing those extra 1-3 grips as you currently are. Keeps TUT really high and maybe pushes these grips more towards the endurance end of the strength-endurance spectrum
2) Reduce # of grips. As you said, focus on quality over quantity, avoid building pump and training grips when you've accumulated fatigue from earlier sets. Will lower TUT and maybe push workout more towards strength end of spectrum
3) Keep # of grips same, but decrease baseline resistance for late grips to offset the cumulative fatigue from earlier sets. This one might be toughest mentally because it forces you to back off the resistance on those later grips, even though you know from other workouts where the same grip was earlier in the rotation that you're "strong enough" to use more weight. Maybe this is the most balanced approach in terms of targeting strength-endurance, in that you're keeping TUT high but still emphasizing quality by backing off the resistance on the late grips
I don't know what the right answer is, and there will be tradeoffs for each approach. For me personally, I'm attracted to either 2 or 3, maybe with a slight preference to 3 because A) it lets me keep training additional grips where I want to focus on conditioning my tendons as much as I want to build strength (e.g., pockets), and B) I think the endurance element of strength-endurance is a weakness for me so I like keeping that part of the focus for my HB workouts in the strength phase.
All that said, I'm operating with a pretty superficial understanding of energy systems and exercise physiology, so I would be super interested in hearing the thoughts of those more expert than I.
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Post by scojo on Jan 20, 2017 11:23:48 GMT -7
Another option could be to split up the hangboard workout into two sessions. You could do one in the AM and one in the PM, or you could split them up into separate days. Of course, this only works if you have enough time flexibility to make it work (having a hangboard at home helps a lot).
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Post by jcm on Jan 22, 2017 9:23:07 GMT -7
My unscientific sampling points me towards only doing 5 goal-specific grips (crimps/edges) on which I can get more quality attempts (more aggressive adding of weight throughout phase). At this stage of training up to 5 grips per workout seems to be the cut-off for quality attempts. This aligns pretty well with my experience. 5 try-hard grips seems to be the magic number, such that I can put a high-quality effort into each grip but still have a decent volume and a variety of grips. Any more than 5 grips, to me, just starts to feel like junk miles.
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mclay
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by mclay on Jan 23, 2017 1:06:54 GMT -7
Jet (or anyone with a RCTC) - Do you know the range of depth in mm for the VDER? Also what is the difference in hold depth between your large edge and small crimp?
Daustin - I'm leaning toward option #2 at this point, but the others have their merits.
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Post by jetjackson on Jan 23, 2017 10:36:10 GMT -7
I'll measure up when I get home if Mark doesn't get in here and advise you beforehand.
Other thing to consider is that they changed the RPTC recently, there is an old version and a new version. It seems to me that the edges are beveled in a slightly different manner, that makes them a little more comfortable - particularly on the thin crimp, than the original version. The resin used is also a better texture IMO.
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Post by jetjackson on Jan 24, 2017 10:20:27 GMT -7
Sorry, forgot last night - was doing our weekly cook-up. I'll try to remember tonight.
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Post by ehowell on Jan 24, 2017 14:00:57 GMT -7
I switched to 4 grips on the Advanced Program for this reason, and the fact that I can't stomach much more than my current 53 minute program. 4 finger edge (half crimp), MR pocket (0.5 pad, open), L pinch, MRP on 1 pad edge. Other than 2 WU sets, that's it. I haven't noticed any decline in performance since dropping a number of other holds.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 24, 2017 19:14:52 GMT -7
I do 6 grips, 3 sets per grip. I would say that over the years my work capacity has gradually improved, though 6 grips is still pushing it. For many years I was really only able to put out a good effort on 3 grips (though I still trained 5-6). Now I can put in a really good effort on 5 grips, and the 6th one is generally only good early in the phase, or if I struggled mightily (and therefore had less TUT) on one or more grips earlier in the workout.
Interestingly, the grip I always struggle on is IM, which is currently my 5th grip. My grip order is:
MR Closed Crimp Mono SCC IM Pinch
So, the IM fingers/flexors are pretty thoroughly hammered by the time I get to the IM grip. My pinch grip has undergone an incredible renaissance since I got the RPTC, despite being last in the order. It's now consistently one of my "best" grips (in terms of improvement per season). I assume this is because its working the muscles differently than the previous grips. I might be better off doing IM last, which might give it a chance to recover a bit.
Bottom line, its not just a question of # of grips, but which grips, and to a lesser extent, grip order. And, there may be value in doing these "junk miles" grips, but it might take years to realize the eventual improvemnt in work capacity.
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Post by climbnkev on Jan 24, 2017 19:29:55 GMT -7
Jet (or anyone with a RCTC) - Do you know the range of depth in mm for the VDER? Also what is the difference in hold depth between your large edge and small crimp? Daustin - I'm leaning toward option #2 at this point, but the others have their merits. The VDER is 32.5mm-18.25mm and SVDER is 23.45mm-8.95mm. These are measured with calipers from the inside to the outside of each edge, the actual trainable range is less as the small side is the pinky side of each hold. The small crimp is 8.4 mm.
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mclay
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by mclay on Jan 25, 2017 1:09:38 GMT -7
Bottom line, its not just a question of # of grips, but which grips, and to a lesser extent, grip order. And, there may be value in doing these "junk miles" grips, but it might take years to realize the eventual improvemnt in work capacity. I try to keep an eye towards the long-term development too. In the short-term it doesn't seem "profitable" to keep plugging away on an extra grip or two. I think I remember when you were interviewed on the Training Beta Podcast something was said along the lines that you had been training on tiny holds for a decade, but were maybe just now realizing the full benefits (I think this might have been with regards to Shadow Boxing).
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Post by aikibujin on Jan 25, 2017 8:55:12 GMT -7
I train 7 grips: open, MR pocket, full crimp, mono, half crimp, IM pocket, and medium pinch. That seems like a lot of grips, and my pinch and IM pocket are definitely suffering a little near the end of the workout. I didn't use to train pockets, however, after tweaking my hand by pulling hard on an IM pocket with a thumb catch and again on a MR pocket on separate occasions, I decided to add the three pockets to my training. My thinking is that even if they don't get super strong on paper, by training these grips year-round hopefully I'll prevent injuries down the road.
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mclay
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by mclay on Feb 3, 2017 23:00:47 GMT -7
Injury prevention is my main long-term/big picture goal, so the idea of training a few extra grips at non-optimal levels year round seems helpful. The risk involved with the approach of keeping a few extra holds is that it may cloud the effort level for the target/difficult holds earlier in the workout. However, the the biggest "break-through" in following the RCTM so far (cycle 5) is learning to listen to your body and knowing how to find the growing edge without overdoing it. That varies for each individual and requires honesty with oneself.
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mclay
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by mclay on Feb 6, 2017 2:05:08 GMT -7
Just finished HB5 of the cycle and felt like I absolutely crushed it for the first time ever on a hangboard workout. Despite my complaining at the start of the cycle, and serious consideration of dropping the last two grips, I ended up sticking with it (daustin's option #1). It sucked for workouts 2-4, but paid off in spades today.
I set personal bests on 5 consecutive grips - Large-open hand edge, small edge/open hand crimp, medium edge/half crimp, narrow pinch, and 3 finger "edge"/IMR pocket. Needless to say psyche was high, and it's a good thing the garage/gym is a fair distance from the kid's bedrooms or they may have been slightly traumatized by the early-morning celebratory/try-hard noises.
The final attempts on the sloper weren't as stellar, but I was able to eek out 2 more reps each set when compared to HB1 and 2.
The two main takeaways I had from this - I added 30 seconds to the rest in between sets. For me it made a big difference on the "endurance" side of things. Without being any sort of sports science expert, I believe that still falls well within the hypertrophy time period. And I was certainly able to give a solid effort on more grips as a result. Secondly, trying really really hard matters. As the book says - it's supposed to be all out war! Maybe this is something you eventually just get, but for me it also seems like have to re-learn or re-adjust my thinking as I come to a new Strength phase.
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