kader
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Posts: 37
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Post by kader on Nov 24, 2016 7:02:07 GMT -7
Hi,
I am about to start my strength phase for my first cycle. I own a beastmaker 2000 hangboard which does not have pinches. I am thinking of using DIY wooden pinch blocks to work on my pinch grip. Compared to hanging from pinches it seems less specific... Should i consider trying to hang from the pinch blocks (like with the metolius rings) or can i just deadlift the block? Also, i don't have enough weight plates at home to do both hands at the same time so it has to be one hand at a time.
Ay thoughts?
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Post by nyakon on Nov 25, 2016 6:40:07 GMT -7
I have the same BeastMaker hangboard. While it's not a proper pinch grip, I've found that hanging off the 30 degree slopers with my index fingers nestled up against the edge, I can hook my thumbs into some pockets on the lowest rung. The resulting pinch definitely makes a big difference to me; I can add a lot more weight to my hangs for this. Give it a try, see what you think.
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kader
New Member
Posts: 37
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Post by kader on Nov 25, 2016 8:35:25 GMT -7
Thanks mate. That sounds like a good idea and will give it a shot Would do that rather than the pinch blocks? i am still trying to figure out my HB1 workout at this point...
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Post by jcm on Nov 25, 2016 15:33:23 GMT -7
Pinch blocks are a better solution. They will more effectively target the thumb, as compared to trying to pinch the beastmaker slopers. The blocks can also be made the just the size you want, which allows for nice ergonomics. I used a Beastmaker plus pinch blocks for several cycles, and found that it was a good combination.
Regarding specificity, I don't think that there is any issue with the "lack of specificity" when deadlifting pinch blocks. If anything, deadlifting the blocks is a nice change. I do pinches at the end of my hangboard workouts, and by the time I get there by shoulders are tired of hanging on the board. Getting to put your shoulder in a different position for the last grip gives them a needed break.
If using pinch blocks, get a 2.5 lb weight. The weights used on a 1-hand pinch block are small, so going up by 5 lbs (say, from 25 to 30) is a big jump. Having a smaller increment is nice.
Going 1 hand at a time is fine. You do a set on one hand (take one minute), then immediately do a set on the other hand, then you have a minute to change weights, then repeat. I wouldn't want to do an entire workout like this (no downtime), but it is fine for 1 grip.
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kader
New Member
Posts: 37
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Post by kader on Nov 27, 2016 1:08:32 GMT -7
Thanks mate. I am sticking with the pinch blocks. Will report progress at the end of the phase!
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kader
New Member
Posts: 37
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Post by kader on Dec 21, 2016 4:49:21 GMT -7
Should have asked earlier but, I saw the anderson bros hangboard (RPTC) for the first time today (20k jpy in montbell in tokyo...) and it had three different pinches width: narrow, medium and wide. Which are the ones from the hangboard protocol? I only trained the medium and wide ones in my current (first) cycle!
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Post by climber511 on Dec 21, 2016 7:01:14 GMT -7
There seems to be some interest in “pinch” training to which I might have something to add. In the “Grip Sport” contests that I compete in “pinch” is one of the events that is highly contested. The main contested event is called the Two Hand Pinch – it you think of two weight plates smooth sides out with a pipe through the holes that additional plates can be added and you pinch the smooth sides of the plates at the top you can visualize what we’re doing. This gives the advantage of being able to micro load for training purposes. This can also be used one handed as well of course. We have an adjustable width apparatus we use but regular weight plates work fine. Start with 2 – 10# plates – then 3 – 4 – 5 – 6 plates etc. Or you can use a piece of pipe and add weight that way. Of course you can use 2 – 25# - 2 – 35# or 2 – 45# plates. Something else we use are the “ends” from dumbbells (handles has been cut out). These can be lifted or “tossed” back and forth from hand to hand – giving a dynamic similar to a Campus Board for Pinch training. www.az-grip.com/lists2.php?list=1&event=4&country=all&gender=1&measurement=1 I currently sit at # 18 on the list. Another thing learned from the competitive training experiments that is important and can have value for climbing is thumb placement in pinch – if there is any interest I can type something up further. Attachments:
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 21, 2016 9:28:32 GMT -7
Should have asked earlier but, I saw the anderson bros hangboard (RPTC) for the first time today (20k jpy in montbell in tokyo...) and it had three different pinches width: narrow, medium and wide. Which are the ones from the hangboard protocol? I only trained the medium and wide ones in my current (first) cycle! You should use whatever width pinch(es) are best for your climbing (based on your goals, likely terrain, weaknesses, etc). Currently I train only the widest pinch on the RPTC.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 21, 2016 9:28:48 GMT -7
if there is any interest I can type something up further. I'm interested!
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Post by climber511 on Dec 21, 2016 16:29:02 GMT -7
Pinch training – not just for climbing but Grip Sport as well. Much of what I will say is of course in Mark’s book – I hope to add just a few tips I have gleaned from my experiences. In grip sport we are always trying for any advantage that will allow us to pick up even one more pound more or less immediately - we have found there are techniques that allow us to lift more weight without actually becoming stronger (which takes time). At the most basic of levels there are two types of pinch training – Isometric (no movement) and with movement. Both have value and advantages – disadvantages. Climbing pinches don’t move (well we hope they don’t anyway ) so we will concentrate on non-movement training for now. Isometrics seem to give gains to only a few degrees either side of the width trained in our case so multiple widths need to be trained and tested. For training purposes there are reasons to train and understand the differences in one and two hand pinches and the way the hand(s) work separately and when used together. Generally the thumb (single larger digit) is weaker than the four opposing fingers. But of course the fingers themselves have different strength levels – with the ring and pinky being weakest. What this means is that by proper thumb placement and taking advantage of the effect of “rotation” into the ring and pinky side of the hands – the overall application of your existing strength level “pinch” can be strengthened to a significant extent. For learning purposes take 3 or 4 ten pound weight plates and try the following – 5 plates if your pinch is strong. Put them together smooth sides out – place your hand with your thumb directly in opposition with your index finger and lift. Next place your thumb in opposition to the middle two fingers and lift. You should be able to feel a difference – if you are right at your limit strength you will likely find you can only lift them one handed with thumb opposing middle fingers and not with opposing index fingers. Next we want to try a two hand pinch (I know you don’t two hand pinch often in climbing but bear with me). Take 2 – 45# weight plates smooth sides out. Place both hands on the plates with the thumbs opposing the index fingers and lift. Then place your hands with the thumbs in opposition to the middle two fingers and lift. Now comes what hopefully will show something that can be advantageous in climbing. Repeat the last two grips but this time rotate strongly towards the little fingers with both hands. You should find a significant difference now in favor of thumb opposing the index fingers. Now to relate this to something climbing oriented you have to always think of thumb placement in relation to fingers but more importantly always think of rotating into the weaker two fingers and a sort of “levering” into the thumb. You may find the thumb is now touching on the side of the thumb at this point (not everyone but it’s not unusual. The fact that rock pinch grips won’t move means you can use the technique of proper thumb opposition placement for the situation and also turn into the weaker two fingers to immediately increase the strength of the grip. For most people the pinches on the hangboard are too difficult to actually “feel” the effects of this. I suggest experimenting with weight plate pinches to learn the advantages of this.
As to actually increasing the actual muscular strength being able to micro load does have its advantages via weight plates – wooden blocks etc. Something we have found very good is what we call “dynamic eccentrics”. We do this a couple ways – quick reversal of pinch lifts and/or “tosses” from one hand to the other. The brief dynamic overload at the bottom of say a quick shrug or pull gives a quick hit overload in excess of what can be lifted concentrically normally as the duration is so short. Tosses do this as well and seem to work even better than the quick reversals. Hope any of this helps – if nothing else it should be a fun experiment .
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Post by aikibujin on Dec 21, 2016 20:22:21 GMT -7
Now to relate this to something climbing oriented you have to always think of thumb placement in relation to fingers but more importantly always think of rotating into the weaker two fingers and a sort of “levering” into the thumb. You may find the thumb is now touching on the side of the thumb at this point (not everyone but it’s not unusual. The fact that rock pinch grips won’t move means you can use the technique of proper thumb opposition placement for the situation and also turn into the weaker two fingers to immediately increase the strength of the grip. For most people the pinches on the hangboard are too difficult to actually “feel” the effects of this. I suggest experimenting with weight plate pinches to learn the advantages of this. Actually, I think I've discovered this technique while training on the medium pinch. I picked the medium pinch because it just felt really hard for me, in the beginning, I had to remove 45 lbs from bodyweight (all the weights I own) and still barely able to hang on for a few seconds. But over the course of my hangboarding phase, I discovered that instead of squeezing the pinch with the meaty part of my thumb, if I angle my thumb more toward my middle and ring finger, turn my thumb to the side so now I'm using the bony part of my thumb, and apply a twisting motion with my hands, I have a much easier time on the pinch. So much so that I was down to only removing 27.5 lbs in just a few weeks (and can probably keep on removing weights if I kept on doing it). But after thinking on it, I actually decided to go back to the "squeezing with the meaty part of my thumb" with a lot of bodyweight removed (so back to about -40 lbs). Here's my reason: as you've mentioned already, this technique only works when you create a counter-twist with both hands (basically increasing the friction on the pinch). In the way you do it (with plates) and the way I do it (on the Rock Prodigy hangboard), our thumbs are pointing towards each other, so essentially it's a horizontal two-hand pinch. I probably have not climbed as many routes compared to some others on this forum, but I have never encountered a horizontal two-hand pinch in the wild. The only time I encountered a lot of two-hand pinching was on the limestone tufas in Asia, and those are always aligned vertically since they're formed by water and gravity. Not me but... you get the idea. Now, anyone who's pinched a tufa before knows you don't succeed by squeezing the juice out of it. You usually try to use body position to use the tufa more as a sidepull/layback (like what the climber in the photo above is doing), so you don't have to squeeze as hard. I think that's the single most important factor in turning a desperate lobster fight with a tufa into something more manageable. Your thumb placement on the tufa is usually dictated by the subtle feature in the rock, not necessarily always close to the middle and ring finger, and I'm not sure if the twisting motion with the wrist will work as well when both thumbs are pointing in the same direction (which is often how you pinch a tufa). The pinches on the Rock Prodigy board is aligned horizontally to remove cheating factors like compression so you can really isolate and train pinch strength. So I decided I shouldn't introduce other ways to cheat the pinch just so I can have better numbers on paper. There are a lot of techniques involved with using the pinch which cannot be trained on a hangboard, I'm better off training pure strength on a hangboard and train technique when I'm actually climbing. I do like your idea of tossing a plate from hand to hand, that's almost like campus training for the pinch. I may have to try that one of those days (but maybe buy some steel-toe shoes first).
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Post by climber511 on Dec 21, 2016 21:19:54 GMT -7
Due to the fact the rock can't move - you can "twist" into it one handed (unlike with plates - it can't turn) - using the same technique as you use in the two hand version. Thumb placement in relation to the fingers is still of value of course. And even with both thumbs up on a tufa etc - it is very possible to rotate into the pinky side and increase biomechanical advantage.
As you found on your own certain changes can have benefit - I would suggest continuing to play with the techniques in training and finding ways to actually use them on the rocks. But as you state train for increased strength at all times - but when actually climbing - you are not "cheating" the pinch if you want to think of it that way in training.
Moving the relationship of the thumb to oppose the middle of the hand is actually a way to increase the involvement of the ring and pinky by lessening the need to twist.
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Post by aikibujin on Dec 21, 2016 22:03:18 GMT -7
As you found on your own certain changes can have benefit - I would suggest continuing to play with the techniques in training and finding ways to actually use them on the rocks. But as you state train for increased strength at all times - but when actually climbing - you are not "cheating" the pinch if you want to think of it that way in training. Well, let's use compression for example. I used to have a Metolius Contact hangboard with two pinches on the side. I quickly found that I can use compression to make the pinches a lot easier. That's why I sold the Metolius board and bought the Rock Prodigy board instead. Does compression have benefits? Of course! But when I used compression to improve the pinch on the Metolius board, am I really training my pinch, or am I training compression? On that Metolius board, I can hold my bodyweight off the ground by compressing the two pinches and not using my thumbs at all. So I'm definitely not training pinches anymore. The twisting technique also creates a very small amount of compression by increasing the friction of the pinches and allow me to create a bit of tension between my arms. I think this is why I was able to increase my medium pinch by almost 20 lbs within a few weeks. But the question is, was I really increasing my pinch strength, or was I getting better at twisting the pinches and creating compression between them?
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Post by climber511 on Dec 22, 2016 7:56:44 GMT -7
I guess I'm not able to express myself clearly. There are two things here. One is developing increased strength - the other is expressing that strength better. In training do what works for development. But when climbing use that strength in the most advantageous manner possible. Use training to learn how to express it better when wanted.
If you find no value to this - simply don't do it.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 22, 2016 9:42:16 GMT -7
I've also noticed differences in "expressed strength" based on thumb placement (relative to fingers) and rotation on the RPTC pinches. I use the RPTC wide pinches, and I generally place my thumbs as far to the inside as possible, with my fingers relatively "outside" (although not as far outside as possible--there's definitely a sweet spot). This position allows for a good amount of rotation if you pull your elbows in while hanging. There's surely some compression at work here too, but I guess I'm not as concerned about it as Boer is. I'm sure my grip is getting stronger doing things this way. It takes me about 1-2 workouts to eke out all the benefits of cheating on any grip. After that I'm fairly confident that any further gains are legit. Furthermore, I feel like learning to place your grip optimally is just as important as making the grip stronger. Granted, I can't think of a time outside where I used rotation to make a pinch feel better, but just because I can't remember such an instance doesn't mean it hasn't happened. The bottom line for me is that outside, I feel way stronger and more confident on pinches in general. Whether that is a result of getting stronger, getting crafty-er, or a combination of the two, I don't care
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