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Post by tedwelser on Sept 3, 2015 13:19:31 GMT -7
In your observations, what are the minimum strength requirements for safe campus training?
I am thinking especially for folks who are starting the RCTM from a less advanced climbing level. (say, projecting around 5.11-).
My observations are that the limiting factor for matching ladders is mainly finger strength, and as you move towards max ladders upper body pulling power (through a wide range of motion, and largely one armed) becomes the limiting factor for safely performing the exercise.
What would make sense as a pre-req for finger strength from a given campus rung?
How about for pull-up or one arm pulling strength?
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Post by slimshaky on Sept 3, 2015 15:05:13 GMT -7
i honestly think the most important pre-requisite is the self discipline to end the workout before you are beating a dead horse. that, and no current elbow/shoulder/finger injuries.
in terms of strength requirements, from a practical level a person will need to be at least strong enough to dead hang the rungs (assuming we are talking about actual campusing, instead of 'assisted' campusing). they would also need to be strong enough to do a pullup. the problem with these levels is that they would indicate the person likely doesn't have an adequate training history to have sufficiently strengthened all of the related components.
i think if we are talking grade-wise, i would probably offer the general advice that a person should probably be climbing in the 12a range before they start seriously campusing. of course there will be exceptions to this, probably on both sides of the coin.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 3, 2015 15:41:27 GMT -7
I think it probably depends a bit on what you are hoping to get from the Campus board. If you're a timid climber who is trying to be more aggressive and dynamic, you could probably benefit from some basic campusing at the 5.10 or 5.11 level. If you're looking to build contact strength with max ladders and other physically limiting movements, it probably makes sense to follow slim's advice.
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Post by tedwelser on Sept 4, 2015 9:22:02 GMT -7
Thanks Slim and Mark. I certainly agree about the most important aspect being the approach and knowing to quit while still fresh. I guess I was thinking that hanging a given rung and being able to do a single pull up are necessary requirements, but they are not really sufficient to pursue the most basic campus move safely--there would be very little margin of safety during dynamic loading if one is near the limit of what they can hold or pull, especially while starting out when campus specific skill is lowest. So I think it is still helpful to think about how much hanging and pulling strength you should actually have before pursuing the different campus exercises.
Even on matching ladders it would be safer to have the edges feel easier to hold or more clearly within the scope of someones finger strength. Last season I felt very safe and within my limits on matching, and standard ladders on the mediums. Completing the medium standard ladders while maintaining momentum was harder but still safe feeling, max ladders felt a bit risky on the second move that depends much more on one arm pulling power. It turns out that even with large rungs I found the second move on a 1-3-5 max ladder to be difficult and out of control. The reason, I suspect, is that my one arm pulling power was not nearly developed enough. That meant that my second move of the max ladders were likely to lead to injuries because the level of pulling needed was too close to my limit. When I added large rungs to my board and found that I was basically no better at max ladders on the larges than I was on the mediums.
On other threads people have joked about being bad at campusing, and besides skill, I think some measure of hanging and pulling strength would help diagnose why campusing is challenging in different ways for different people. For me there is no mystery that my pulling strength is relatively my weakness. Last spring I think I could only do about 6 strict pull ups from rings in a set. I also was not training single arm pulls or single arm inverted rows. I felt like I was ok with terms of hanging strength.
I was curious about this yesterday, so I tried doing a static hang from both the medium and small rungs (standard sizes). I found I could hold 10 seconds easily with an added 25% of my body weight on the mediums, and about 6 seconds on the smalls.
On the large rungs I could easily hold an added 50% of my body weight for 20 seconds. I think this is more than enough finger strength for max ladders on those rungs.
What should the pulling strength standard be for max ladders? I am very far away from being able to do a pull up with an extra 50% of my body weight. I think working towards heavier weighted pull ups or one arm pull ups is the structural foundation necessary to do the max ladders safely, but I don't know at what point I will have made enough progress at those to start getting more value and less risk out of max ladders.
People who are doing 1-3-5 or 1-4-7, where are you in terms of weighted pull ups or one arm strength?
Until I get a lot closer to that level of pulling fitness I think I should make high quality standard ladders my priority, and perhaps do longer matching ladders to work on the initial move's deadpoint precision.
I hope all of that makes sense.
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Post by jessebruni on Sept 4, 2015 9:36:51 GMT -7
I can give you my own data as reference. Power is absolutely a weakness of mine and I'm really bad at a campusing for the level I climb at. I can do 1-4-6 on the large rungs on my stronger side most of the time, and I can do it on my weaker side if I'm totally fresh and everything goes perfectly. I can do 1-4-6 on the medium rungs on the strong side with about the same consistency as on my weak side with the large rungs. I cannot do 1-4-6 on the medium rungs on my weak side. I can do 1-3-5 on the small rungs with either arm with good consistency, or 1-4-5 with good consistency.
For pulling strength reference I can do about 23 strict pull ups in a row, my weighted pull up 1RM is 90 lbs added (body weight is 135 so conveniently exactly 2/3rds of my bodyweight), cannot do a 1 arm pull up yet but I feel close.
For me, and it sounds like you as well, our finger strength is more than adequate. What we lack is explosiveness and general pull strength. One thing that I think can help is if you have a cave or similarly steep wall you can campus up jugs that are spaced decently far apart. It's a little easier to get a good pull off a jug than the campus rungs. If jugs are too easy you can use finger buckets, holds that are 2nd knuckle deep or so, bigger than the large campus rungs but smaller than jugs.
At least for myself, since I've started to wake up to how bad my pulling power is compared to my finger strength, I've decided I need to dedicate a lot more time to campusing specifically. I'm starting to realize that my goal project for the year is likely out of reach before the year is out (which is okay) and my time will be better spent working on this weakness rather than attempting to climb a project on the outer edges of possibility for me.
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Post by joshvillen on Sept 4, 2015 10:20:34 GMT -7
I am at +92% body weight, before trying to "bulk" up I was able to do 2 one arms on my right arm and 1 on my left. 1-5-8 on a wonky board (20 degrees, 9inch spacing) felt easy...however 1-4-7 on a standard board felt hard. I came to the conclusion I needed more pulling power, currently shooting for 2x (200%) bodyweight, hopefully 1-5-8 will be more casual with that much power.
Basically, 1-5-8 on jugs feels equivalent to 3 one arms at 5'8 +1 ape
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Post by tedwelser on Sept 4, 2015 13:10:04 GMT -7
Jesse and Josh- These are super helpful points of data. The details really underscore for me how I need to ramp up my pulling power, but do it in a way that avoids stirring up any old injuries.
I train at my home wall and have one section of 70 degrees with enough jugs to try the campus bouldering. I will try it out. I am also going to start some slightly weighted pull ups. Thanks again.
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Post by Chris W on Sept 4, 2015 14:18:40 GMT -7
Ted, be careful or you'll end up like me with a nagging medial epicondylitis! try your pullups on rings instead of a board or bar.
FYI, my hardest redpoint was this spring at 5.11d (two routes this spring) and I'm campusing. Not very well, but still...
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 4, 2015 14:47:13 GMT -7
Ask yourself: Are you campusing to get better, or are you getting better to campus? Regardless, it sounds like your pull strength could be a limiting or impeding factor in your rock climbing, so working to improve it for the sake of your climbing will probably pay dividends. If that helps your campusing, that's a bonus, but I wouldn't prioritize it solely for the sake of doing a Stupid Human Trick (like campusing).
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Post by Lundy on Sept 4, 2015 19:28:02 GMT -7
Hi Ted, I also feel weak in my pulling (hence the other discussion about SEs separate from my climbing), and have been doing heavy weighted pull-ups since about May and seen some excellent results. As Chris mentioned though, be careful of your shoulders and elbows. I use a few approaches for this. First, definitely use rings. Second, I do prophylactic elbow and shoulder exercises every day even if I'm not working out. When I first started doing weighted pull ups and rows I was really feeling it in both elbows and shoulders. Since adding the simple preventative exercises, I've had no pain really at all, and am doing three pull-ups with 85# added. My campus PR is 1-3.5-6.5 on medium rungs and 1-3.5-6 on small rungs.
Let me know if you want more detail about the exercises I do...
Hope this is helpful. Good luck!
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Post by tedwelser on Sept 4, 2015 19:38:27 GMT -7
Hey Lundy- I would love to know the exercises that you do.
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Post by tedwelser on Sept 4, 2015 19:42:51 GMT -7
Currently I am doing unweighted pull-ups with slight assistance, about 15-20 per set. Also if I do them from webbing slings around my wrists they bother me very little. I am certainly not doing them from a bar or board.
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Post by Lundy on Sept 4, 2015 19:59:07 GMT -7
For shoulders, I swing Indian clubs (basic "inner" and "outer" heart shaped swings with just three pound clubs) and use bands to work external rotators. One motion is elbow at your side, pulling across your body from inside to outside. Second motion is humerus parallel to floor, rotating from forearm pointing forward, parallel to floor, to forearm pointing up, perpendicular to floor.
For elbows I do the two exercises recommended in the "Dodgy Elbows" post in climbing like 10 yeas ago for medial epicondylitis. Eccentric outward rotations of wrist, and eccentric forearm flexor training (lower with weight and use off hand to lift back up).
If this is totally confusing, let me know. I'm posting from my phone but I could probably pretty easily find links to all these exercises and post here.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 4, 2015 20:43:34 GMT -7
Second motion is humerus parallel to floor, rotating from forearm pointing forward, parallel to floor, to forearm pointing up, perpendicular to floor. That's my fav.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 4, 2015 20:44:52 GMT -7
Currently I am doing unweighted pull-ups with slight assistance, about 15-20 per set. Seems like a lot of reps. That's in the rehab range. Perhaps try fewer reps (~8-12) and higher intensity?
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