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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 8, 2016 14:57:24 GMT -7
Hey all, There's a blog post with photos, etc about Iontophoresis on the RCTM.com blog. Check it out here. Huge thanks to Lamont ( slimshaky ) and Jon ( jcm ) for helping me with this.
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Post by aikibujin on Sept 9, 2016 7:12:07 GMT -7
Hey all, There's a blog post with photos, etc about Iontophoresis on the RCTM.com blog. Check it out here. Huge thanks to Lamont ( slimshaky ) and Jon ( jcm ) for helping me with this. Yay! I've been waiting for the result of your self-electrocution experiment. Not sure if I'm ready to go down the path of a mad scientist yet, maybe I'll try it when I actually start to climb hard.
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Post by cirquebound on Sept 9, 2016 10:03:06 GMT -7
Hey all, There's a blog post with photos, etc about Iontophoresis on the RCTM.com blog. Check it out here. Huge thanks to Lamont ( slimshaky ) and Jon ( jcm ) for helping me with this. Woot! Glad to hear you tried it out. I have been doing it (from New England) all summer, and its the best my skin has ever been. Couldnt be happier about it. One thing I did notice was that you were resting your hand on the pan. I have been using a sponge to rest my hand on. My thinking is that it keeps that area of skin in contact brine and potentially doenst short the circuit.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 9, 2016 11:05:57 GMT -7
Actually I'm not resting my hand on the pan. My hand is resting on a plastic Tupperware lid (you may notice a red disc-like thing in there). If you read through all the tips at the end, I discuss that.
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Post by Chris W on Sept 30, 2016 18:14:16 GMT -7
Anyone know anything about Rhino Skin Solutions? It looks like their active ingredient is Methenamine which, if I'm not mistaken, degrades into formaldehyde.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Oct 3, 2016 12:15:37 GMT -7
I've never used it, but I know other people do. Actually someone from writing a story fro Climbing Mag asked me about AntiHydral, and I said I don't like it because of the 1) results and 2) long-term health implications, and he responded that he preferred the Rhino stuff for the 2nd reason. So I imagine if that is true, it would be surprising news to some people.
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Post by Chris W on Oct 3, 2016 20:50:49 GMT -7
At this point, I'm not willing to risk it. I have some credible medical resources that methenamine degrades in an acidic environment to formaldehyde and [something else I can't remember]. It's actually an antibiotic used for UTI's if taken internally, though topically it seems to work for hyperhidrosis.
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Post by Chris W on Oct 5, 2016 19:02:09 GMT -7
So... Turns out the active ingredient of Antihydral is... methenamine; same as the active ingredient in Rhino Skin Solutions. Dug into it a bit more and methenamine definitely does degrade into formaldehyde (and ammonia or urea or something else like that).
Formaldehyde has been shown in studies to cause cancer, but it seems a bit unclear what kind of dose would be needed to do that in humans. It is absorbed through the skin. It's made in the body naturally at times, though quickly broken down into harmless ingredients. It's found in nature, but seems to be unstable in water and air and doesn't last more than an hour or so in each environment. Also, it seems that there are lots of chemicals in lots of different products (plywood, nail polish, shampoo, food preservatives, etc.) that degrade into formaldehyde.
It looks like your casual "social" smoker would likely ingest far more formaldehyde than could possibly be absorbed through the skin from methenamine. Also, to my knowledge, there haven't been any known cases of cancer caused by use of systemic or topical methenamine. Still...
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Post by tetrault on Nov 30, 2016 19:15:40 GMT -7
Actually I'm not resting my hand on the pan. My hand is resting on a plastic Tupperware lid (you may notice a red disc-like thing in there). If you read through all the tips at the end, I discuss that. Been experimenting with iontophoresis for the past month. Starting slowly, of course, but my finger tips seem to be sweating less than they used to, and holding up a little longer on small crimps. As most of my hand is generally dry, and I have only had issues with the 1st pads getting too sweaty/soft/pink, I wanted to minimize the area receiving the treatment. I also wanted to limit my exposure to electrical currrent, in case it is "bad for you" in some way. Can't compare the efficacy to any other setups, such as the "pie tin" version in the Anderson blog, as I have only used one method, but attached are a few pics if interested. Used 2 plastic bowls. Wire is attached to small pieces of galvanized sheet metal. Finger tips/base of palm rest in the water on spongy foam sheets attached to sheet metal. Started with 12 volts as pictured. Have moved to 18 volts with a pinch of salt in the water, and this seems to be reasonable. ptjournal.apta.org/content/ptjournal/61/3/359.full.pdf...see Discussion on 1st page of PDF link for a possible reason to apply a zinc ointment prior to iontophoresis-ing if you have open splits, etc on your hands, though I have not tried this. Attachments:
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Post by korduroy on Dec 1, 2016 5:44:27 GMT -7
This is all fascinating to me. I have incredibly sweaty hands and have never had an issue climbing. However, I get really dry skin elsewhere on my body in winter, and tan easily in the summer (never use sunscreen), so I apply moisturizing lotion to my body year-round on a nightly daily basis. As a result, my fingers get moisturized everyday. I have nice not-too thick callouses that are soft and strong - not susceptible to flappers. As a matter of fact, I have yet to receive a single flapper in my climbing tenure with several sends in the V10/5.13 range, and a preference to micro crimps. Maybe I haven't experienced holds so small and sharp that this would be an issue, but generally the New England dry winter conditions helps substantially. Everybody is different though....
One thing I do do, however, is add ground clove to my chalk when I am on climbing trips where I know I will be climbing hard several days in a row. The clove helps act as a numbing agent, which is crucial when the tips are raw. I find that the clove, in conjunction with moisturizing lotion and sanding care, keeps my hands feeling ready to climb everyday. Now my muscles, joints, and tendons on the other hand....well, that's another story.
Side thought...its interesting how people try so hard to dry their skin, and yet Nick Duttle actually has to moisten his before climbing
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Post by jcm on Dec 14, 2016 17:22:28 GMT -7
Side thought...its interesting how people try so hard to dry their skin, and yet Nick Duttle actually has to moisten his before climbing The idea is that there is an optimum level of dryness. If it is too wet/soft your skin will tears and your fingers ooze off of holds. If it is too dry your skin will split and will be too glassy, leading to dry firing. So Duttle needs to moisten and others need to dry. This is also why over-drying (with iontophoresis, antihydril, etc) is bad news.
Optimum skin is also a function of climate and rock type. You might want dryer skin for climbing on coarse granite in humid conditions (i.e. Washington), and somewhat softer skin for smooth rock and dry conditions.
Using varying amounts of drying agents and moisturizers at different points in the year can, in theory, allow you to tailor your skin condition to what is needed.
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Post by jcm on Dec 14, 2016 17:43:35 GMT -7
Interesting data point from this week:
I slacked off and stopped the iontophoresis treatments for several months this fall, and predictably my skin became moister/sweatier again. I don't think it quite hit baseline condition, though, indicating that even after 3 months there was a residual effect.
Anyway, I finally got around to starting the treatments again after the break. I did three 20 minute treatments over the course of a week, and quickly had good results (skin got drier). It seems that as my skin gets accustomed to these treatments, it actually responds more quickly to them. Then an interesting effect happened with my hangboard workouts. I'm close to the end of my strength phase now (HB10 out of 12 planned). I had been plateaued badly on the medium pinch (on the Forge) for about 5 workouts... no progress at all. Toward the ends of the hard sets I would fail by "oozing" off of the pinch, no matter how much chalking I did. Once I dried my hands, I was easily able to bump weights up by 10 pounds and not hit failure. I think that this is primarily attributable to drier hands and no more oozing off. I had a similar experience, though slightly less dramatic, on the thin crimp (Forge thin crimp, 1/2 crimp position, no thumb used).
This suggests two things to me. First is that making significant skin changes in the middle of a hangboard cycle can throw off your numbers. Did I get 10 lbs stronger? No- my skin just stuck better. So one needs to note accordingly in training logs.
More importantly, though, this shows a quantifiable benefit from drying/optimizing skin. On a friction-dependent hold, having drier skin allowed me to hold almost 10% more weight, with all other conditions remaining the same. This is a huge difference; it could take a year of training to achieve the same result. On similarly friction dependent holds outside, having this same dry-skin advantage could easily mean the difference between sending and not sending. TL;DR: Optimizing your skin condition can produce measurable performance gains.
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Post by Chris W on Dec 15, 2016 6:18:24 GMT -7
Interesting thoughts on optimal skin moisture/dryness. I'm still trying to figure this out myself. I have a lot of thoughts to contribute whenever I can get more time. I've noticed that when I'm campusing [on wooden Metolius rungs] that I seem to have an easier time with slightly more moist skin. Sometimes I purposefully don't chalk before a campus set or will chalk up then breathe on my fingers to add a tiny amount of moisture. The conditions in my barn can be pretty variable depending on the season.
If I'm bouldering outside on our sharp diabase boulders (Governor Stable in PA) I like my skin as dry and tough as possible. Same goes for sandstone at the NRG and slick diabase quarry rock at Birdsboro PA.
Hangboarding seems to be a bit more difficult to figure out. Sometimes I feel like my skin can be too dry on holds like the pinch or sloper if the temps in the barn get down into the 20's or lower.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 15, 2016 21:24:07 GMT -7
I've noticed that when I'm campusing [on wooden Metolius rungs] that I seem to have an easier time with slightly more moist skin. Me too. I haven't gone so far as licking my fingers, but I will chalk a lot less in the winter. If I'm bouldering outside on our sharp diabase boulders (Governor Stable in PA) I like my skin as dry and tough as possible. Same goes for sandstone at the NRG and slick diabase quarry rock at Birdsboro PA. IME on rock, the harder/dryer, the better, as long as I don't get a split. Maybe because I'm naturally sweaty, and I'm always climbing really sharp stuff, it seems that even if my fingers are "too tough", they'll soon get thoroughly tenderized. There is only one exception I can think of: the crux of Siberian Express is a long slap off a glacier polished sloper. That hold was super tricky and whenever it was "too cold" my low hand would fling off the thing unexpectedly. It was pretty much exactly the same as trying to do a big campus move with super glassy skin. (incidentally, a friend of mine who is much stronger than me, but has much dryer skin than me, has been having (relatively) a lot of trouble linking that move on redpoint). Hangboarding seems to be a bit more difficult to figure out. Sometimes I feel like my skin can be too dry on holds like the pinch or sloper if the temps in the barn get down into the 20's or lower. Again, same here. It's less of an issue on the Pinch for me, since that's at the end of the workout and my skin is usually pretty warm by then. But I notice it a lot on the (Forge) MR, which is my first grip. The hold is slightly sloping, and I really notice the lack of friction on colder days. Don't tell anyone, but I actually use a space heater in my hangboard chamber in the winter Supposed to be a high of 6f for Saturday's workout!
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Post by Chris W on Dec 16, 2016 21:23:47 GMT -7
Ha! I survive by using a small (Mr. Buddy) propane heater in my barn in the winter. It gives off a bit of moisture (combustion) which you can feel if you hold your hands over it. I'll chalk my hands, smack them on my pants, hold them over the heater, breathe on my fingers, then campus. Thankfully, my wife hasn't witnessed this ritual yet, but if she did, I she would probably just make another comment on how she married a "unique" man.
On the topic of skin, I tried and aborted a skin sanding experiment for my transitional winter phase. My goal was to make the skin on the finger pads tough and strong for my rare winter bouldering excursions. The plan was to vigorously sand the skin on my fingers, using a pumice stone my wife gave me, on every "climbing" training day after my workout, essentially every third day (HB, SE, Rest, repeat). It really helped take care of skin pain and "rolling" or bunching around my interphalangeal joints, but my hangboarding seemed to suffer. I had the least productive hangboarding season yet, with no new PB's and only 1 grip even reaching my old PB. I was concerned I was sanding the texture and friction off my pads, making the grips harder. I stopped sanding the pads before my second to last HB session.
My limit bouldering, however, is the best it has been. For the first time ever, I successfully sent and repeated every problem on my wall. Perhaps I'm just getting "better" at those problems, not necessarily stronger.
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