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Post by aikibujin on Dec 2, 2016 12:43:49 GMT -7
I'm in my second week of power phase, and after all the recent discussion on max ladders, I decided to work on improving my max ladder during my last workout. It was also the first time I brought a camera to the gym and videoed myself on the campus board. When I watched the videos the next day, I noticed I was swinging sideways wildly on the second move, which is probably not ideal. After watching the videos frame-by-frame, I have some ideas on what I'm doing wrong, but I'm also curious to hear what you all think. First video, warming up with basic ladder on the large rungs. I was able to get a bystander to shoot this video for me. goo.gl/photos/Cpsz8tCFz71UddkE7Second video, 1-3-5.5 leading with left hand. The bystander left, so I asked a chair to shoot this. goo.gl/photos/9hfFS7kEkat5cKkA6Third video, 1-3-5 leading with right hand (my weak side). The chair was doing a poor job of framing the video. goo.gl/photos/6nKEvwZYuwLfuRns9After this I tried to point my camera higher a few times, but it always ended up falling over and shooting a video of the roof, so I gave up. Later in the workout I was able to do a couple of 1-3.5-6 (leading with left) and 1-3.5-5.5 (leading with right), both are my PRs on max ladder. My max one-move is 1-5, so I think if I can get better at making the second move, I still have room to improve my max ladder. |
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Post by jetjackson on Dec 2, 2016 13:30:58 GMT -7
Cool, I was hoping someone would extend discussion from the other thread so we wouldn't derail it. I can't give you much feedback, mostly due to the Dunning-Kruger effect - I have no idea if I'm doing it right or not, but my legs definitely swing out wide - see video below. What do you think is harder? 1-2-5 or 1-4-5? My max one move is 1-5-6 on the larger rungs. I don't have access to smaller rungs anymore (see video below, where they have put smaller rungs between large rungs, making them unusable... wtf), so can't test, but previous to that when I had access, it was 1-4-6 on small rungs. I can't get the 1-3-7, 1-4-7 or the 1-5-7. I realize now that I also never tried 1-3-6. So it would seem I have similar results to yourself and Eric - but I don't climb anywhere near as hard as either of you - which is probably indicative of how multi-faceted climbing is, and how little campusing probably matters in the 5.10-5.12 range. youtu.be/3-RvqQJKuSA?t=4m42s |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 2, 2016 14:40:00 GMT -7
I wasn't able to see your campusing because I was distracted by the hottie on the hangboard. But seriously, who hangboards with climbing shoes on? Come on people!
Anyway, I would not describe your swinging as "wild". It seems pretty typical to me. I don't think it's a problem.
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Post by erick on Dec 2, 2016 17:03:54 GMT -7
I need to work on moving as fluidly as you. Your technique seems much better than mine. I have a very start stop start motion while doing max ladders. I also kick out to the side a good deal during max ladders so I would not worry about that at all.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 2, 2016 17:15:33 GMT -7
I have a very start stop start motion while doing max ladders. Agreed, but I think not having to pull your knees up would help with that. |
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Post by aikibujin on Dec 2, 2016 19:01:04 GMT -7
Anyway, I would not describe your swinging as "wild". It seems pretty typical to me. I don't think it's a problem. That's good to hear. I thought it looked like I was swinging around on a monkey bar. What do you think is harder? 1-2-5 or 1-4-5? My max one move is 1-5-6 on the larger rungs. I don't have access to smaller rungs anymore (see video below, where they have put smaller rungs between large rungs, making them unusable... wtf), so can't test, but previous to that when I had access, it was 1-4-6 on small rungs. I can't get the 1-3-7, 1-4-7 or the 1-5-7. I realize now that I also never tried 1-3-6. So it would seem I have similar results to yourself and Eric - but I don't climb anywhere near as hard as either of you You obviously haven't read my tag line, I'm pretty sure I need to project Eric's warmups. By "max one move", I mean start out with hands matched on 1, and go as high as you can with one hand without worrying about any follow-up moves. I think this is a pretty good measure of explosive power on a campus board (and arm length). Looking at your video, you're hitting 1-5 pretty easily, so I would say your max one move is most likely higher (if you're not hitting the end of your reach). As far as the difficulty of 1-2-5 compared to 1-4-5, I'll try them the next time I'm in the gym to be sure, but my guess is 1-4-5 will feel harder for me. The reason is in a 1-2-5, my hands are close enough together (1/2) that the second move will not feel too different from doing a max one move. But in 1-4-5, my hands are so far apart it will be hard for me to generate power explosively. In fact, when I tried a L1/R3.5 start the other night, I had a very hard time. I need to work on moving as fluidly as you. Your technique seems much better than mine. I have a very start stop start motion while doing max ladders. I also kick out to the side a good deal during max ladders so I would not worry about that at all. I took the advice from RCTM (page 140) to use momentum and keep the upward motion as continuous as I can. I think Mark has a really good point, if you aren't starting in such a cramped position, you'll be able to work with your momentum much more effectively. Even though the campus board at the gym is pretty high, I still like to start on a higher rung with my arms bent a little, so I can get a bit a recoil without worrying about "dabbing". |
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Post by daustin on Dec 2, 2016 19:30:57 GMT -7
Do you feel like the swing impedes your ability to do the 3rd move? It's hard for me to say if you're swinging "too much" without watching a lot of video of different people campusing. I'll admit that when I watched your video, I did think you seemed to be swinging more than most campusers I've observed, but maybe that was confirmation bias. Sounds like others in the thread don't see anything wrong.
If you do feel like it's an impediment to doing the 3rd move, the only suggestion I have is to focus on keeping your torso a bit more square to the board, but still using your legs for momentum. Might result in less swinging. But, if it's not an impediment, then swing away!
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Post by Lundy on Dec 3, 2016 21:19:31 GMT -7
I have a very start stop start motion while doing max ladders. Agreed, but I think not having to pull your knees up would help with that. This is interesting. I've always wondered what impact my super low campus board has on my campusing. My board is in my garage where the ceiling is just about 8 feet. As such, the base of the board is really low, and all my hard max ladders start straight off my butt with my legs in front of me. On my first move, I can clear my butt and end up in the leg bent position that Erick starts in, and on my second move I finally clear my legs and end up hanging more vertically. I don't think this impacts me from a training standpoint -- anything that makes training harder is all good, I figure. But I, too, have a bit of a halting motion, and I think this is probably the reason. This really makes me want to go to a better setup campusboard and see what would happen. I've not yet stuck 1-3.5-6 on the small rungs with this setup, though have gotten really close... Maybe I just need some space?? |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Dec 4, 2016 10:18:08 GMT -7
Or, considering starting higher up the board, so that you finishing every set on your highest rung.
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Post by Lundy on Dec 4, 2016 12:34:23 GMT -7
Yeah - that's actually what I do. so when I say I'm working on 1-3.5-6, I'm actually working on 2-4.5-7. Even still, I'm starting on my rump, though it's at least a bit doable from 2 (and even 1.5). Starting on 1 with a long pull seems ridiculous, but like I said, good training.
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Post by aikibujin on Dec 4, 2016 14:36:39 GMT -7
I don't think this impacts me from a training standpoint -- anything that makes training harder is all good, I figure. I generally agree with you on making training harder. But there is one more thing to consider in campusing. One of the reasons I train campusing is to get better at dynamic movements, and dynamic moves depend heavily on how you initiate the move. For example, climbers usually need to pump up and down on a starting hold to get the most out of a dyno, and even for a dead point from poor holds, you'll get better results if you move your head back a few inches and throw it forward. So even though you're getting really strong by pulling onto the campus board from a sitting position, I think you're missing the opportunity to train that movement initiation. Do you feel like the swing impedes your ability to do the 3rd move? Since I'm only doing max ladder right now, the swing isn't much of an issue. I'm more concerned with latching on the second move. Once I latch the rung, then it's not too hard to control the swing and match my hand. However, I can see if I try something like 1-3-5-7, the swing will be hard to make the movement continuous without much pause. For now, I guess I don't have to worry about it too much. |
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Post by tetrault on Mar 5, 2017 14:55:30 GMT -7
By "max one move", I mean start out with hands matched on 1, and go as high as you can with one hand without worrying about any follow-up moves. I think this is a pretty good measure of explosive power on a campus board (and arm length). I find the second move of a max ladder to be way harder than the first. Your 2nd max ladder move looks significantly smoother than mine. Nice work. Your movement overall is more fluid, as well. But you really look like you are owning the transition from the first move through to the second move, where mine looks like a struggle, with the "start stop" motion that Erick mentioned. Do you perform offset, or some form of 1-arm pull-ups in your supplemental exercises? Do you do a fair share of bouldering/LB compared with roped routes/ARC? How many "seasons" have you been performing campus workouts? Thanks |
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Post by aikibujin on Mar 5, 2017 22:34:31 GMT -7
I find the second move of a max ladder to be way harder than the first. I totally agree! I think there was some discussion on the difference of the first move vs. the second move of a max ladder here, but essentially you're doing majority of the pulling with one hand on the second move. The further apart your hands, the less the lower hand can contribute to pulling. To answer your questions: Up until December of last year I didn't do much pulling in my supplemental exercises. When I go to the climbing gym (once a week), I'd do some kipping muscle ups on the bar (which I think is good for developing the explosive pull and coordination), but other than that my supplemental exercises were focused on the pushing muscles and my core. What changed in December was that I installed a set of gymnastic rings in my garage so I'm not limited to use them just in the climbing gym anymore. I have done some offset pullups, currently I'm doing archer pullups. I change my exercises every 6 weeks, so I'm not doing the same exercises over and over. For the next change, I plan to use a pulley to remove some bodyweight so I can work on my one arm pullup. When I'm training, I'm probably doing half/half in bouldering and roped climbing. It really depends on whether I can line up a partner for the gym or not. If I can find a partner I prefer to train on a rope, because I need a lot of work on the mental aspect of climbing. Outside I definitely climb on a rope more, even though I do enjoy bouldering. I started campus training maybe a little more than two years ago, after I had read the RCTM. I think I've gone through maybe 4 cycles of campus workouts? I don't track my campus workouts like I do with hangboard workouts. I normally don't campus more than 3 or 4 weeks straight, and I only campus once a week (since that's how often I can get to the gym). I do think it is fun, so sometimes I'll throw in a random campus session here and there at the end of an endurance workout if I have some extra energy to burn. If you're trying to gain some insight from my training schedule, I'm sorry to say that my plan is rather unique due to family constraints. But since I started campusing after I read RCTM, I took the advice in the book and tried to make my movement as continuous as I can. As soon as I was able to do regular ladders, I tried to do it with minimum pause and no recoil on each rung. I think the trick is really the timing. You need to latch each rung at the deadpoint, and try to pull for the next rung as soon as you can get stable. If you can fire your muscles and pull somewhat close to the deadpoint, you're not pulling against your bodyweight falling down, so you can generate more upward momentum with the same amount of force. Once I could do that on the basic ladder, I started working on the 1-3-5, and then 1-4-7. But I still have a momentary pause when I latch a rung and before I fire for the next rung. I think the next level up is to maintain the upward momentum without stopping. It definitely requires a whole other level of coordination and power though. Watch between 0:08 and 0:12. |
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Post by MarkAnderson on Mar 7, 2017 15:55:38 GMT -7
That's a cool vid. He does some huge spans in there. The thing where he paddles up at the start is cool, but that's way easier to do on small moves. If you look at his max ladder at the end, he's not using any momentum at all. That may be better for doing your personal best, but it's not ideal for training contraction speed IMO.
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Post by aikibujin on Mar 7, 2017 17:12:21 GMT -7
That's a cool vid. He does some huge spans in there. The thing where he paddles up at the start is cool, but that's way easier to do on small moves. If you look at his max ladder at the end, he's not using any momentum at all. That may be better for doing your personal best, but it's not ideal for training contraction speed IMO. Well you were only supposed to watch between 0:08 and 0:12!  But yes, I agree. his max ladder is the more static variety that most people do, probably just for the numbers (1-5-9 in big white numbers!!!). I do think his paddling up the basic ladder is pretty impressive, I have not seen many people do that. It may be easier than carrying momentum in the max ladder, but to carry momentum for that many moves probably require more speed and hand-eye coordination. It could be something fun to spice up the basic ladder a little bit. |
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