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Post by wellhung on Mar 2, 2016 13:52:11 GMT -7
I've climbed around 20 odd years, and I'm on my Nth hang board cycle (that would be 14) and disconcertingly my records show that I climb my best (and feel the strongest, both bouldering and on routes) from around after the 7th hang board workout to a few weeks after I stop doing hang board workouts (repeater style). So basically after 2 weeks of doing power workouts I actually get worse in all disciplines, indoors or outdoors, and it all continues to go downhill as I switch over to power endurance work. WTF, I'm supposed to peak after the PE work? Anyone else experience this? Not sure what to do about this.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Mar 2, 2016 15:00:00 GMT -7
I've had cycles like that here and there. What are you doing during your Power Phase?
My guess would be that you aren't doing intense-enough or specific-enough power training to keep your finger strength improving after your Strength Phase ends. At least, based on my experiences I would guess that was what I was doing wrong when I had similar results. Basically, I would complete a great Strength Phase, I'd be really psyched to get outside again, and so when the Strength Phase ended I would just start climbing on projects, telling myself I was "roped bouldering", but really I was just trying to send. And so my strength would slowly fade. Also, how many HB workouts are you doing? It is odd that you would peak part-way through your Strength Phase, unless the last several HB workouts are routinely a complete disaster.
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Post by wellhung on Mar 2, 2016 15:19:02 GMT -7
I've had cycles like that here and there. What are you doing during your Power Phase? My guess would be that you aren't doing intense-enough or specific-enough power training to keep your finger strength improving after your Strength Phase ends. At least, based on my experiences I would guess that was what I was doing wrong when I had similar results. Basically, I would complete a great Strength Phase, I'd be really psyched to get outside again, and so when the Strength Phase ended I would just start climbing on projects, telling myself I was "roped bouldering", but really I was just trying to send. And so my strength would slowly fade. Also, how many HB workouts are you doing? It is odd that you would peak part-way through your Strength Phase, unless the last several HB workouts are routinely a complete disaster. Interesting, but I certainly don't feel like I am not doing an intense power phase. 1) Power phase typically involves bouldering on a Moon Board. Seems pretty intense. By the end of the 3 week power cycle I am getting worse on it, not better. 2) I typically do around 10-12 repeater workout in the strength phase. Around workout 6 for me I always feel like there is no way I can do any more weight, but then even though I feel lousy, I get a second wind and get increases through 7 and 8. When I say I peak around 7, that peaks lasts a couple weeks, so through workouts 8-10 and a week or two after into the power phase. All downhill from there.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Mar 2, 2016 15:21:55 GMT -7
Hmm. Do you do Supplemental Exercises during either phase, and do you campus during the Power Phase? What does your schedule look like during your Power Phase?
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Post by brendann on Mar 2, 2016 19:23:06 GMT -7
It would also be good to know your rest intervals for strength, power and PE phases. You may be resting more in the strength phase and thus performing better. Another idea is that your goals don't require power or PE. Can you elaborate on your performance metrics? Premature 'peak' is a common problem and there is nothing to be embarrassed about.
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Post by wellhung on Mar 2, 2016 19:39:02 GMT -7
Hmm. Do you do Supplemental Exercises during either phase, and do you campus during the Power Phase? What does your schedule look like during your Power Phase? Poor consistency with Supplemental Exercises throughout. I have experimented with campusing every other Power Phase workout, but don't always do it (old elbows); the majority of the Moonboard problem cruxes seem practically like campusing anyway. Typically in the Power Phase I will train 1 day on/1 off/1 on/1 off/1 on /2 off. Usually ladder up to harder problems until working limit moves, unless I am not feeling sharp, in which case I will cut intensity slightly. Problems typically take ~20 seconds, 3-5 minutes rest. Stop workouts as soon as there is any sign of power fading. I have tried extending the Power Phase past 3 weeks in the hope of improvement, but this has always failed to yield improvement. Any ideas would be appreciated!
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Post by wellhung on Mar 2, 2016 20:37:12 GMT -7
It would also be good to know your rest intervals for strength, power and PE phases. You may be resting more in the strength phase and thus performing better. Another idea is that your goals don't require power or PE. Can you elaborate on your performance metrics? Premature 'peak' is a common problem and there is nothing to be embarrassed about. Well, maybe its common for the young'uns, but I'm too old for this kind of thing... Strength: straight from the book,advanced hangboard repeaters. 72 hours between workouts.. 10-12 workouts Power: 3-5 minutes rest between~5 move problems. 1 day on/1off /1on/1 off /1 on /2 off PE: Last phase I did 4x4s on the Moon Board, so focused on high end PE. Each workout I got progressively worse until I could barely climb two problems back to back. I started alternating with a lower end power-endurance workout on a treadwall to improve morale, day on/day off, or high/low/off. I admittedly omitted PE for a long time. Yes, the rest is longer in the strength cycle, but I also feel like my forearms have been run over by a truck after a good hangboard workout. Performance metrics: The Moonboard problems stay the same, so they seem a good measure of bouldering power. I have training routes on a adjustable angle treadwall as well that provide a reasonable measure of route climbing ability, and I keep track of the highest angle I can climb them at. I usually don't plan to climb outdoors at the end of the strength phase, but when I do the effect is obvious to me, I'll climb a grade harder despite the fact that I have actually barely climbed at all for a month, just hung on a board. Goals: My seasonal goals have been all over the place season to season: boulder problems that require PE (e.g. Nat's traverse at Mortar); near vertical limestone routes that require finger strength and PE; RRG routes like Jesus Wept, which for me at least requires Power endurance. But, to restate the problem: irrespective of the goal it seems that I both climb and boulder the best at within a week or two of the end of the strength phase (maybe the only exception is the hugely overhanging RRG jug hauls, I climb those best at the end of the base phase!). Everything after the strength phase is a slow decline.
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thor
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Post by thor on Mar 3, 2016 3:08:39 GMT -7
I currently am on my Power phase now, I did power WO # 7 yesterday. I feel like I have the same problem as wellhung. After my strength phase I felt really strong and noticed a big difference in my gripping strength on routes I have been on before my strength phase. Now during the Power phase I feel completely thrashed most of the time. Best Power workout was after a 3 day rest.
I am now beginning to think that the resting intervals for me during the Power phase will have the be atleast 2 days rest after every workout, while in the strength phase 1 day rest felt completely fine for me. This seems to be somewhat different than what others here have commented? Maybe this could be a solution for TS?
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thor
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Post by thor on Mar 3, 2016 3:19:56 GMT -7
I should maybe mention that I also use a MoonBoard for limit bouldring...
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Post by Lundy on Mar 3, 2016 3:38:47 GMT -7
I'm also an older climber who's been doing this for a while, and I've found I definitely need more rest than is recommended in the book. My typical power phase schedule is Day 1: Campus; Day 2: SE; Day 3: Rest; Day 4: LB; Day 5: SE; Day 6: Rest. It's frustrating to feel like I'm climbing so little, but it really has made a difference. For whatever reason, my old bones just don't respond anymore without it.
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Post by jetjackson on Mar 3, 2016 8:02:45 GMT -7
I'm also an older climber who's been doing this for a while, and I've found I definitely need more rest than is recommended in the book. My typical power phase schedule is Day 1: Campus; Day 2: SE; Day 3: Rest; Day 4: LB; Day 5: SE; Day 6: Rest. It's frustrating to feel like I'm climbing so little, but it really has made a difference. For whatever reason, my old bones just don't respond anymore without it. Power phase, I go; 1 - Campus - SE 2 3 4 - Limit Boulder - SE 5 6 7 - Campus - SE Haven't done enough phases yet though, to know where and how my strength tapers off. I couldn't do SE on day after, and then only have one day before next, unless SE was pure core and I wasn't using my grip in any way at all.
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Post by daustin on Mar 3, 2016 13:58:08 GMT -7
Seems that the Moon Board is the common denominator, it must be draining your power!!! Har har. But really, 1 on/1 off sounds like too little rest to me. I'm in my late 20s but still need 2 days off to recover from an intense power workout. Sometimes I'll only rest 1 day off if scheduling demands it, but that's the exception not the rule.
Also curious what you grades you can send in a handful of tries vs. what you project, for both sport and bouldering? I know you gave a couple specific examples, but wondering how'd you generalize it, too.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Mar 3, 2016 14:29:54 GMT -7
I'll join the chorus of "Not enough rest". That may not turn out to be the primary problem, but I think there's enough smoke to warrant tweaking your schedule for a while.
At 38, I take two full rest days after every LB+Campus+SE day, and 1 full rest day after a LB+SE day. I usually do 2 LB+Campus+SE for every LB+SE day, so most of the time I'm taking 2 full rest days after a power workout. Such as:
Day -2: Last HB Day -1: Rest Day 0: Rest Day 1: LB+Campus+SE Day 2: Rest Day 3: Rest Day 4: LB+Campus+SE Day 5: Rest Day 6: Rest Day 7: LB+SE Day 8: Rest [Repeat starting at Day 1]
I also notice that at Day 9, I feel noticeably under-recovered. So the one full day rest after LB+SE is not really enough for me.
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thor
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Post by thor on Mar 4, 2016 3:57:10 GMT -7
What else can cause a diminished overall climbing performance by getting weaker other than not doing intense enough training or to little rest in the power phase?
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Post by Charlie S on Mar 4, 2016 6:42:50 GMT -7
What else can cause a diminished overall climbing performance by getting weaker other than not doing intense enough training or to little rest in the power phase? Work. But that's a different story. For what it's worth, at 28, I can relate to this same issue you guys have been talking about. Rest definitely and probably a healthy dose of psych for your project are key.
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