erk
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by erk on Sept 7, 2015 17:18:38 GMT -7
How do you all like to rest between burns on the proj? I've normally been fine waiting around 20 - 40 minutes between burns but now I'm starting to play around in the 5.13 range and I find that I'm usually pretty tossed after one, maybe two burns. Its a 45 ft cliff so the routes are pretty burly. I find it's usually my power that gets zapped the quickest.
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Post by Lundy on Sept 7, 2015 17:40:59 GMT -7
Great question. I'm very curious to hear how folks treat this. For what it's worth, I am not systematic about this at all, which probably hurts me. There's no doubt that I'm probably often climbing after too much time between burns. I've often wondered how this impacts my performance, but again, have never bothered to systematically chart my performance relative to rest time between burns.
One thing for sure, though, I'm definitely taking more than 20 minutes. Probably more like an hour to an hour and a half after a really good, hard burn, including time to eat, watch the beta of other's, take a turn belaying, then get fired up again...
My guess is that the optimum rest depends on the type of climbing, but I don't think I understand this subject enough to even hazard a guess, other than to say PE routes that burn your forearms to oblivion will obviously require more rest than power routes where you fail less from endurance/burn and more from ability to just do the moves. That might suggest that when you're working the moves, going bolt to bolt, you can probably rest less, and as you get into RP attempts, you should probably rest more. But again, this is an unscientific guess at best.
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Post by jessebruni on Sept 8, 2015 8:43:47 GMT -7
As a general guideline I like a 5:1 ratio of rest to climbing time. So if you were on the route for 10 minutes I'd rest for 50 minutes before doing another redpoint attempt. There are a few other factors to consider. I also climb at a short crag with cliffs around 45 feet tall. However the business is usually in the first 12 feet or so. For instance the route I'm working now is a 13a that's basically just a hard V7 or soft V8 boulder problem to 30 feet of 5.11a. Since the crux comes early, I'm usually on and off in less than a minute. So for this route I treat the rest times more like I would for bouldering which means even longer rest times (anywhere from 7:1 to 10:1). Of course since I'm off so early this usually means only resting 10 minutes or so, even with a 10:1 ratio.
Try to eat a small snack between burns, something with quick energy (I like rasins) but it's important to keep your energy up. Another thing to bear in mind is that you may actually get more tired if you're hangdogging a route and sussing out beta. It doesn't seem like you would because you're mostly hanging on the rope, but it's easy to forget how much effort you can actually put in while hangdogging. So don't forget to rest at least as long as you normally would after a long hangdog session.
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Post by slimshaky on Sept 8, 2015 12:10:13 GMT -7
As a general guideline I like a 5:1 ratio of rest to climbing time. So if you were on the route for 10 minutes I'd rest for 50 minutes before doing another redpoint attempt. There are a few other factors to consider. I also climb at a short crag with cliffs around 45 feet tall. However the business is usually in the first 12 feet or so. For instance the route I'm working now is a 13a that's basically just a hard V7 or soft V8 boulder problem to 30 feet of 5.11a. Since the crux comes early, I'm usually on and off in less than a minute. So for this route I treat the rest times more like I would for bouldering which means even longer rest times (anywhere from 7:1 to 10:1). Of course since I'm off so early this usually means only resting 10 minutes or so, even with a 10:1 ratio. Try to eat a small snack between burns, something with quick energy (I like rasins) but it's important to keep your energy up. Another thing to bear in mind is that you may actually get more tired if you're hangdogging a route and sussing out beta. It doesn't seem like you would because you're mostly hanging on the rope, but it's easy to forget how much effort you can actually put in while hangdogging. So don't forget to rest at least as long as you normally would after a long hangdog session. a lot of good info here. i definitely agree about the amount of effort you can spend dogging. i have done this several times - where i am so determined to figure a section out that i completely wreck myself (and sometimes my skin). some times my resting is belaying someone else, which is kind of nice because i don't go into 'naptime' mode. if i am just resting by sitting and chilling, sometimes i get kind of sleepy and it is hard to get fired back up.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 8, 2015 14:52:11 GMT -7
if i am just resting by sitting and chilling, sometimes i get kind of sleepy and it is hard to get fired back up. Never sit down! You will rarely (if ever) see me sitting down at the crag. If I do I become lethargic. If I'm not belaying, addressing skin or fiddling with my camera, I'm pacing. Anyway, to the OP, I think you really need to experiment and figure it out for yourself. It varies a great deal depending on the person and perhaps even more so depending on the route. I tend to go with around 45 minutes for a "typical" route, but I will go up to 90 minutes for something really pumpy and as few as 20 for something really burly and short. In general I would say that 20-40 minutes is on the way-too-little-rest side of things. That said, for truly bouldery climbing I've found that resting too long can be a big problem. It can be really hard to get your power back up after a too-long rest. If the route is powerful but not super pumpy, you don't need to be 100% fresh when you start, but you need to be able to rage, and for that you need to be warm. 45-feet is not really that short though, unless it breaks down to 10-feet of business and 35 feet of fluff. For 45 feet of continuous climbing I would probably rest in the 45-60 min range. I'm still learning how to optimize my rest between burns even after nearly 15-ish years of sport climbing. During that time I've gotten older, my strengths and weaknesses have evolved, and the terrain has varied greatly. It would be impossible to nail down a single approach that is optimal for all these changing variables, which is why I think continual experimentation is the key.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 8, 2015 15:05:39 GMT -7
So if you were on the route for 10 minutes ... I'm usually on and off in less than a minute. Dude, you definitely need to work your routes longer! You must have these pretty dialed, but seriously there is surely more to learn and/or re-fresh than you can do in those time periods. A typical burn for me lasts 45 minutes, and that's for short, bouldery Clear Creek-style routes. For something long and continuous I can easily do an hour+ (For example, for To Bolt I had my belayer set a timer to go off at 45 minutes so I wouldn't over-do it and wreck my skin. As a result I didn't get to the chains until the third day--instead I would spend 45 minutes just dialing in 20-30-foot stretches.) you may actually get more tired if you're hangdogging a route and sussing out beta. It doesn't seem like you would because you're mostly hanging on the rope, but it's easy to forget how much effort you can actually put in while hangdogging. So don't forget to rest at least as long as you normally would after a long hangdog session. Well, if you're only dogging for 1 minute, how tired could you get? haha. Seriously though, I try to approach dogging like bouldering. That means two things: 1) I try to rest on the rope as I would if I were bouldering. Every so often I go straight in to a bolt (allowing my belayer to chill) and then rest for several minutes. As a result when I get to the ground I'm really not very tired. And so 2) I don't rest super long between burns, since in theory I've been resting regularly through the entire process. I rest long enough to eat something, warm up, give Kate a chance to update her facebook status, etc (note that most of the time I'm not belaying between burns). Normally I would only approach the first day or two on a project this way, since hopefully by the 2nd or 3rd day I'm getting linkage and I need more rest.
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Post by jessebruni on Sept 8, 2015 16:28:13 GMT -7
So if you were on the route for 10 minutes ... I'm usually on and off in less than a minute. Dude, you definitely need to work your routes longer! You must have these pretty dialed, but seriously there is surely more to learn and/or re-fresh than you can do in those time periods. A typical burn for me lasts 45 minutes, and that's for short, bouldery Clear Creek-style routes. For something long and continuous I can easily do an hour+ (For example, for To Bolt I had my belayer set a timer to go off at 45 minutes so I wouldn't over-do it and wreck my skin. As a result I didn't get to the chains until the third day--instead I would spend 45 minutes just dialing in 20-30-foot stretches.) you may actually get more tired if you're hangdogging a route and sussing out beta. It doesn't seem like you would because you're mostly hanging on the rope, but it's easy to forget how much effort you can actually put in while hangdogging. So don't forget to rest at least as long as you normally would after a long hangdog session. Well, if you're only dogging for 1 minute, how tired could you get? haha. Seriously though, I try to approach dogging like bouldering. That means two things: 1) I try to rest on the rope as I would if I were bouldering. Every so often I go straight in to a bolt (allowing my belayer to chill) and then rest for several minutes. As a result when I get to the ground I'm really not very tired. And so 2) I don't rest super long between burns, since in theory I've been resting regularly through the entire process. I rest long enough to eat something, warm up, give Kate a chance to update her facebook status, etc (note that most of the time I'm not belaying between burns). Normally I would only approach the first day or two on a project this way, since hopefully by the 2nd or 3rd day I'm getting linkage and I need more rest. When I say I'm on and off in less than a minute I meant for this particular route, on redpoint attempts, of which the crux is the 3rd and 4th moves. Before I learned the beta I'd stay up there and hangdog to work the moves. Now I know what I need to do, it's just hard to do. So yeah, usually takes about 10 seconds to get to the crux, and fall off, since it's so close to the bottom I just lower back down and try again. It's basically just bouldering with a rope on in case I get past the crux. In general when I am hangdogging I am doing it for much longer, usually as long as it takes to figure out good beta or until I get to the point where I'm too tired to do the moves efficiently.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Sept 8, 2015 18:13:49 GMT -7
Now I know what I need to do, it's just hard to do. So yeah, usually takes about 10 seconds to get to the crux, and fall off, since it's so close to the bottom I just lower back down and try again. It's not just a matter of figuring out the beta. Once you know the beta, then you need to practice it. Effective practice will make the moves easier. If you climb up to a cruxy move, fail, and then lower, you are practicing failing at the move. I think a good rule of thumb is to do a given move successfully 5 times for every you fail on it (sometimes that's not practical, but it's something to shoot for). Each time you fail, you're rehearsing the wrong way to do the move, and repeatedly failing on it is reinforcing that rehearsal. So you need to overwhelm those repetitions with successful/correct repetitions. I definitely understand the idea of lowering to the ground so that if you luck your way through the crux you can just send. It's very tempting. But the fact that you're failing on the move tells you it's hard enough that even after only 3 moves there's a good chance you'll fail. So you need to try it from 0 or 1 move(s) in so you can actually succeed on the move frequently enough to reinforce the proper beta.
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Post by Chris W on Sept 8, 2015 20:35:55 GMT -7
Interesting, haven't thought of it that way...
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Post by jessebruni on Sept 9, 2015 8:44:21 GMT -7
Now I know what I need to do, it's just hard to do. So yeah, usually takes about 10 seconds to get to the crux, and fall off, since it's so close to the bottom I just lower back down and try again. It's not just a matter of figuring out the beta. Once you know the beta, then you need to practice it. Effective practice will make the moves easier. If you climb up to a cruxy move, fail, and then lower, you are practicing failing at the move. I think a good rule of thumb is to do a given move successfully 5 times for every you fail on it (sometimes that's not practical, but it's something to shoot for). Each time you fail, you're rehearsing the wrong way to do the move, and repeatedly failing on it is reinforcing that rehearsal. So you need to overwhelm those repetitions with successful/correct repetitions. I definitely understand the idea of lowering to the ground so that if you luck your way through the crux you can just send. It's very tempting. But the fact that you're failing on the move tells you it's hard enough that even after only 3 moves there's a good chance you'll fail. So you need to try it from 0 or 1 move(s) in so you can actually succeed on the move frequently enough to reinforce the proper beta. Yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying and I usually would do that. In this case the crux move is a full extension stab to a gaston mono in a 6 foot roof, then I have to pop my right foot up high and crank off the left mono and right foot, lock off on those two limbs and reach around the roof. This move puts a ton of stress on my middle finger (which I'm using for the mono) and I usually only have 3 or 4 attempts on that move before it starts to feel tweaky and I don't feel safe on it anymore. That's the reason I'm just lowering down and relying more on luck. But yeah, your point is well taken.
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Post by slimshaky on Sept 9, 2015 9:51:00 GMT -7
yeah, i feel your pain. i was working on a very similar style route recently (ie fierce, short crux). i feel like i totally knew exactly how to do it, but i kept not-doing it somehow i would basically rope up, climb up to the crux, fall, pull the rope and wait for 5 minutes, repeat 3 times. then belay my partner on his project. then do my 3 strikes you're out routine again. then be done for the day because my skin was mangled. in my case i think mark is correct - i should have worked on being able to fully climb the crux section a few more times before trying to send it. ultimately, i put the route on hold until next summer. it was trashing my skin and getting me off schedule for more important things.
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Post by slimshaky on Sept 9, 2015 10:02:10 GMT -7
if i am just resting by sitting and chilling, sometimes i get kind of sleepy and it is hard to get fired back up. Never sit down! You will rarely (if ever) see me sitting down at the crag. If I do I become lethargic. If I'm not belaying, addressing skin or fiddling with my camera, I'm pacing. When you get my age your feet get tired it is true though - mark is always on the move when he isn't roped up.
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