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Post by joekr07 on Jul 1, 2015 16:03:31 GMT -7
Just listened to the trainingbeta podcast, where Steve Maisch talks hangboarding etc. www.trainingbeta.com/media/tbp-025-steve-maisch/?portfolioID=3838Although I don't agree to everything he claims, he is arguing that 10 sec max hangs and then 4 min rest is preferable over 7sec3sec repeters for strength gains. any opinions on this?! Guess there is a desperate need for better studies here! |
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Post by jessebruni on Jul 1, 2015 16:06:53 GMT -7
Steve Maisch is a boulderer. 7:3 is meant to represent the typical sport climbing duty cycle. If you are a boulderer you are going to want your hangboarding sessions to be pretty intense, and a lot of boulderers that I know tend to prefer Max hangs over repeaters, although they both work pretty well. Pick your poison, choose which one you like best. I'd argue that if you're a sport climber repeaters make more sense, and if you're a boulderer, I can certainly understand the appeal of max hangs.
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Post by Lundy on Jul 1, 2015 18:14:27 GMT -7
I also thought that podcast was super interesting, though I view the question differently from boulderer vs. route climber. Seems to me like Steve is using the fingerboard to train the P-C energy system, which Mark and Mike train during the power phase with limit bouldering and campusing. The repeaters, in contrast, train the glycolitic energy system. So my question to Steve would have been what exercise does he use to train the glycolitic system, if he's using the hangboard for the P-C system...
I posted elsewhere that I was wondering if anyone has used the max hang protocol to transition from the strength to the power phase? Perhaps transitioning to that after hitting the plateau?
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Post by amalec on Jul 2, 2015 9:53:10 GMT -7
There's a bit of over "energy system" focus here. ATP-PC (or mitochondrial) super compensation is probably not the most important thing that happens. Hypertrophy and neurological adaptions are probably more important for grip strength. And power is more neurological and stretch reflex/stiffness.
Maisch uses bouldering intervals to develop strength-endurance concurrent with strength.
But neither of those is relevant to the question:
Is 2-3 X 7-6 X 7"/3" X 4-6 grips (repeater + volume) superior to 6 X 1 X 10"/3' X 3 grips (intensity) to develop finger strength?
This seems like an awesome exercise physiology study. One could do an n=1 study as follows:
6 macrocycles of 8 weeks, alternating RCTM-style and Maisch style with a 4 week strength phase of 9 hangboard workouts and a 4 week performance phase. Evaluate max hang from a 15mm edge at the beginning of each strength cycle, and at the end of the last performance cycle (7 total observations), and record performance against some benchmark boulder problems.
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Post by slimshaky on Jul 2, 2015 9:57:02 GMT -7
a few times in the past (before i had a campus board) i would do my normal workout for 8 workouts and then do more of an MR workout for 4 workouts. now that i have a campus board and also use a system board for limit bouldering, i just go directly from the regular HB to the campusing/limit bouldering. by the time i am finished with my regular HB cycle i am usually mentally fried and just need to do something different.
my wife has been unable to climb for quite a while due to a foot injury, so this year she has started using the HB. she has been cycling between the beginner workout (1 set of 10 on 5 off 6 reps per grip) for 10 workouts, and then 6 workouts where she does 1 set of 5 on 15 off 3 reps per grip. for the 2nd group of workouts i have her just starting at where she left off, or maybe 5 lbs heavier. i think she has done 3 or 4 cycles now. she has climbed at the gym a little bit, usually on one foot, and she is pretty convinced that she is a lot stronger than she used to be. hopefully before too long we will be able to get her out and get rolling again.
in all of this though, if someone was getting started using a hangboard i would recommend, without any doubt, to use the program outlined in the RPTM (ie 7x3).
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Post by jessebruni on Jul 2, 2015 11:08:27 GMT -7
I agree that energy systems get focused on a little too much in these discussions. You're burning glycogen reserves with max hangs or repeaters either way right? It's not like either exercise is aerobic. It would be cool to do some studies and try to determine which was a better method though. My suspicion is still that max hangs would be better for bouldering and repeaters better for sport climbing.
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Post by sorvad on Jul 2, 2015 14:08:04 GMT -7
Had the same question in mind after reading, among other stuff, Dave Macleod talk positively about max hangs: onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/2010/02/fingerboarding-timings.htmlI searched around a bit and this is one of the articles I found about isometric exercises in weight lifting (most of the said more or less the same thing). This one seems to be based on multiple different journals about the topic and specifically the "Number & Duration of Muscle Actions"-section is very relevant here: www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/isometric-exercises.htmlAs I understand from the second link, it seems like both methods (long hangs few reps vs. short hangs more rep) will improve strength, but greatest result will come from short duration static hold with 15-20 maximal voluntary actions (reps?) in total. I dont know if the links are any useful. |
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Post by amalec on Jul 2, 2015 17:51:34 GMT -7
Yeah, I don't think there's any hard science here. Lopez showed (at least in a single study) that approaches with more weight on larger edges did better than less weight on smaller edges, in a max hang/long rest protocol.
The Andersons showed empirically that their method works to send some impressive stuff. Other strong dudes use a different approach. So the real question is: "given that Y works, does X work better", and the only answer is to do enough of a study, or try each long enough to form an opinion.
And if you are already following the RCTM approach and it works for you, be careful about jumping into something else without knowing why and how you'd tell if it's better.
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Post by joekr07 on Jul 3, 2015 4:53:15 GMT -7
Interesting replies! sorvad I definitely think you are on to something there!
Reading more about this -> For me repeters seems to be a bit like training power-endurance in the strength phase, not necessarily a super bad thing, but just seems a bit unintuitive.
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Post by joekr07 on Jul 5, 2015 16:51:03 GMT -7
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Post by jabcrumpton on Jul 15, 2015 8:11:38 GMT -7
After taking a look at Steve's Website, he has an interesting article regarding to The Economics of Training. I was really interested in the category for evaluating the 1/2 crimp on an 18mm edge with a 10 second hang. Thinking back to an Old Training Beta Podcast, I remembered Mike Doyle referencing a hangboard workout he used that employed a similar Max Hang routine. Just for funzies, I plugged in Mike's data (making a few assumptions) to see where he would fall according to Steve. He's so far above the scale (honestly not that big of a surprise), I just decided to create a whole new category. O.o  |
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Post by Will S on Jul 16, 2015 22:31:36 GMT -7
This is fairy straightforward stuff in the weight training world.
Repeaters is a hypertrophy type protocol. Med intensity, high vol, med rest between sets.
Max singles is a pure strength type protocol. High intensity, low vol, high rest between sets.
Max singles is going to build little to no muscle mass, but more pure strength. Repeaters will build significant muscle mass, and still build strength, though less so than the max singles. If you are going to choose one for the long haul, pick repeaters. If you intend to mix it up, you might try 4 weeks of repeaters, followed by 4 weeks of max singles. Most will plateau around 3-5 weeks on the same scheme and need to switch something up to continue making progress (speaking in generalities of any type of training). And eventually even on a periodized system, you will limit out on max singles if you're not eventually adding muscle mass to that muscle (forearm). It might take years before you limit out, but why wait to start increasing the muscle size?
At the simplest level, volume = hypertrophy, intensity = strength. That's a little oversimplified because you need a decent amount of intensity for hypertrophy, but we're talking typical % of around 65-80 for hypertrophy, and >85 for pure strength.
The RCTM periodization aims to build muscle (hypertrophy via high vol hangboarding), then recruit that newly increased muscle (strength/power via bouldering and campusing), then load it with enzymes and fuel (power endurance), then perform on it. They prefer hard bouldering and campusing for the power end of it. You could use max singles as that part, or one exercise in that part (mix bouldering, max singles, and campusing), but you won't be getting the "power" side of things. Power involves speed of force development (technically power is work/time, which involves distance by definition...but in an isometric contraction, there is no distance traveled). This speed of force development is commonly called "contact strength"...the ability to develop maximum force quickly, so you hit a hold and develop enough force to stick it before your body rips away, etc.
There is no "right" way to train. Everyone is different and will respond differently, and the same person will respond differently over time. And we all have differing access to tools and time, etc.
I can get home at lunch and hangboard any day of the work week, half the time I walk home for lunch anyway so I'm already there, it's nice living a 5 min walk from the office. But I spend two nights a week coaching, and that can play havoc with scheduling my bouldering workouts, especially during roped comp season when I spend a lot of time belaying on coaching nights and can't get my session in while coaching. It's easier for me to do a hypertrophy month followed by a max month on the hangboard, and stick some bouldering sessions in there to integrate the strength as my schedule allows. During bouldering comp season, not a problem to just boulder with the kids.
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Post by jessebruni on Jul 17, 2015 8:26:19 GMT -7
Great explanation Will! Sounds like you have a great coaching gig too! Do they pay you for that or is it volunteer?
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sr
New Member
Posts: 19 
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Post by sr on Jul 17, 2015 10:19:09 GMT -7
Maisch did say he cycles HB workouts from the max hang sessions to a more repeater type workout.
I hope Mike posts, I would bet he does some heavy hangs.
the one advantage I see with the max heavy hangs is the reduced time involved. It is quicker and simpler, so from an economy point of view if less work (ie. 3 grips, 5 hangs, 10 sec- 150 sec) gets you the same gains as the repeater workout (7 grips, 13 hangs each(7, 6) x 7 sec- 673 sec) than it would make sense to do this one. Plus it would give you energy to practice and work on climbing skills.
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Post by jessebruni on Jul 17, 2015 13:52:15 GMT -7
Don't hold your breath  |
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