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Post by tedwelser on Jan 9, 2015 15:01:42 GMT -7
I went on a family road trip this summer and stopped into Momentum Millcreek. They had the best training facility that I have seen so far, and I was really impressed with the whole facility but especially the training space on the upper floor in the back. In another thread Charlie posted a link to their blog, and it has some nice photos of part of the training room. But here is my question: Why are so many gyms so poorly set up for training, and what can we do collectively to change that? We have a brand new facility from Vertical Adventures in Columbus, and yet, they have no space for climbing specific training. They have no good options for ARC training, no hangboards, etc. The whole climbing space is dedicated to "fun" routes and problems. Many gyms (owners, managers, staff) seem to be entirely unaware of the fact that for RCTM inspired climbers their gyms are of little to no value. This is not an emergency for me personally-- I have good training at home, but I feel like there is a giant awareness gap between what most gyms provide and what a RCTM climber would actually need.
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Post by daustin on Jan 9, 2015 16:24:31 GMT -7
A lot of it probably has to do with demographics/the customer base of a particular gym. I expect that there are significantly more people in UT that consider themselves "climbers" and would make use of training equipment than there are in Columbus. Hypothetically, if birthday parties are the main revenue driver for a gym, then it probably makes more financial sense to use "extra" space for a short TR wall with only holds that are shaped like animals instead of a training facility, unfortunately for us self-proclaimed Prodigies. If the customer base is mostly 18-30 year olds that are more interested in general "fitness", maybe you use that some of that "extra" space for a yoga or spin studio and some for climbing training. In terms of what we can do to change it, I think the first step is just to start conversations with gym mgmt. My "home" gym recently underwent some renovations and expansion, which resulted in an improved selection of training apparatus. However, there was no RPTC hangboard and no fixed pulley system. I emailed the gym manager about it, and within a few months they got a RPTC and installed bolts for pulleys*. To your point, the lack of optimal training facilities might not always be a calculated financial decision, it might just be a lack of awareness of demand. So vocalize that demand, get your like-minded friends to do the same, and you'll start to tip the equation a bit. *They didn't actually install a fixed pulley system, so I still have to bring my own pulleys and cord every time I want to hangboard, but it's better than it was before, when I would bring full length nylon runners to girth hitch around the wood frame that the hangboard was mounted to and attach my own pulleys to those. If you're reading this, thanks Mission Cliffs!
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Post by jcm on Jan 9, 2015 16:55:47 GMT -7
This thread opens up a long litany of gripes that I (and many others) have on this topic. Instead of going into an extended whining session, I’ll stick (for now) to the primary question: Why do many commercial gyms, even otherwise top-quality new gyms, not bother with providing good resources for climbing-specific training?
Hypothesis: For most gyms, in most markets, having a good hang/campus/system board doesn’t do a damn thing for their bottom line. If a gym owner’s primary concern is providing what the median climbing gym customer wants, and thus appealing to the largest customer demographic (and making the most money), building an extensive training area is an inefficient use of space and resources.
Instead of going deep into theory, let’s consider the example: a new gym in Columbus, Ohio. In this market, what percentage of climbing gym users actually want to and know how to use a hang/campus/system board? Less than 5%, surely, maybe more like 1%. Additionally, this small group is composed of the most serious climbers anyway, and so the gym is probably going to get their business anyway, especially if it is the only decent gym in town. There may be one or two training freaks who quit the gym in disgust at the lack of hang/campus/systems boards, but that is it. Most of us would gripe a bit, make desperate pleas to the head routesetter, but otherwise keep our membership so as to have access to the bouldering cave. As such, there really is no financial incentive for the business-oriented gym owner to cater to this demographic—he’ll be getting our money anyway. That space that could be used for the training area would be—financially speaking—better used for more “fun” climbing, or some elliptical machines, or a yoga studio, or a juice bar, etc. These are all things that might draw in new members from the periphery, who might not get a climbing gym membership otherwise.
But, you exclaim, what about Momentum, and Movement, and so on? Salt Lake and the FRange are just different markets, for several reasons. The average gym user in UT/CO, as compared to some flatland hellhole, is a more experienced climber and is more in-tune to training. As such, there is more demand for training options and a higher % of gym customers want to see a campus board. Additionally, there is more competition in the UT/CO market. The Ohio gym owner can safely ignore the serious climber, since that group is pretty much guaranteed to buy a gym membership anyway—they don’t have another option. The UT/CO climber has options. If the training options at Momentum sucked, all training-inclined customers (which are a sizable number in SLC) would go the the Front instead, and this would hurt Momentum’s bottom line. Instead, Momentum built an amazing training area, and now has pulled in lots of new customers with it (I don’t think this would happen in Ohio). How did the Front respond? They built an insanely huge Moon Board to compete. Money speaks.
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Post by Charlie S on Jan 9, 2015 17:14:20 GMT -7
JCM, you must be a local!
The Front in Ogden is putting in a training area too. I basically pestered them about issues with training in previous correspondence. Being clear in what's needed, but also polite, goes a long way. In short, I was able to help design the new training area going in up there. This is really going to open up the door to what's needed in Ogden for training which previously did not exist.
But to further answer your question: I personally think many people are just not interested in training. A number of individuals I speak and climb with turn their nose up to training. "Just climb more," they say. And then they complain about being "short" on powerful moves outside... Training-types must be an odd group. Who else would go right up to the limit with hangboarding? People who have a drive to succeed!
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Post by kerwinl on Jan 9, 2015 17:54:04 GMT -7
I totally agree with the sentiments here, training as much as it is necessary really is not that helpful on the business end for gym owners.
I have often pondered whether or not there are enough people in my area to build a training co-op center. There are a ton of climbers in Seattle and the idea of consistent and dedicated training is starting to catch on. Would not take much maybe 1500-2000 sq-ft, a few woodies, hangboards, treadwalls and some additional workout equipment. A dream right now, but maybe not in the future.
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Post by jcm on Jan 9, 2015 22:01:23 GMT -7
I have often pondered whether or not there are enough people in my area to build a training co-op center. There are a ton of climbers in Seattle and the idea of consistent and dedicated training is starting to catch on. Would not take much maybe 1500-2000 sq-ft, a few woodies, hangboards, treadwalls and some additional workout equipment. A dream right now, but maybe not in the future. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! I'm a newcomer to Seattle, and have actually been surprised at the lack of good training facilities. There is a good selection of gyms, and the idea of doing real training seems to really be catching on, but the facilities available in those gyms all leave something to be desired, at least compared to what you might find in CO/UT. A dedicated training dungeon would be a great addition to what is available here, although with the insane rise in rents right now finding the right space might be hard. And Charlie S: Not a SLC local, but for a while I was giving serious consideration to becoming one, so I watched (from afar) the growth of the gym scene there with much interest. Work considerations put me in Seattle instead, though.
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Post by brendann on Jan 10, 2015 20:20:46 GMT -7
Great input all around, but that is what I have come to expect from this forum. I'll offer a different way to think about training and commercial gyms. The Anderson's present compelling reasons to train in their 'Why Train?' section. These ideas apply to individuals reading the book as well as gym user groups. If a gym can motivate its members to train, they can prevent burnout, injuries and create meaningful progress. I think the chicken-egg scenario is the opposite as stated above. Strong gym members don't create training areas, dedicated training areas can create healthy, strong, psyched members. This takes a commitment from the gym owners but the more they see the positive impact at other gyms the easier it will be. The Anderson's have taken a tremendous step towards bringing training to the masses but there is more that can be done. As has been mentioned in the forums, an APP integrating video, timers and logbook could lower the bar to train further. At Momentum we have been making videos to demystify the training implements, distributing the videos through social media for free. The coached training program Momentum Athlete has been wildly successful, bringing in new and old climbers. Free 'how-to' nights with coaches help show gym members what they can do and how they can progress in the training area. CrossFit has shown us that the general public craves working hard, we just need to show them where and how. Mike and Mark helped me push my standard and I just want to share the good word with the world.
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Post by tedwelser on Jan 11, 2015 9:05:27 GMT -7
Great input all around, but that is what I have come to expect from this forum. I'll offer a different way to think about training and commercial gyms. The Anderson's present compelling reasons to train in their 'Why Train?' section. These ideas apply to individuals reading the book as well as gym user groups. If a gym can motivate its members to train, they can prevent burnout, injuries and create meaningful progress. I think the chicken-egg scenario is the opposite as stated above. Strong gym members don't create training areas, dedicated training areas can create healthy, strong, psyched members. This takes a commitment from the gym owners but the more they see the positive impact at other gyms the easier it will be. The Anderson's have taken a tremendous step towards bringing training to the masses but there is more that can be done. As has been mentioned in the forums, an APP integrating video, timers and logbook could lower the bar to train further. At Momentum we have been making videos to demystify the training implements, distributing the videos through social media for free. The coached training program Momentum Athlete has been wildly successful, bringing in new and old climbers. Free 'how-to' nights with coaches help show gym members what they can do and how they can progress in the training area. CrossFit has shown us that the general public craves working hard, we just need to show them where and how. Mike and Mark helped me push my standard and I just want to share the good word with the world. Thanks a bunch for bringing up these points. I think the big challenge is getting more people in leadership positions at gyms to recognize that they are missing an important opportunity when they do not make the (relatively inexpensive and easy) changes that would enhance the training value of their gym. It is great to hear about examples of gyms like Momentum creating a framework for embracing training. This is more involved (in terms of programming etc) but doing so can greatly enhance the quality and longevity of their climbers' involvement in the sport.
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Post by heelhook on Jan 11, 2015 12:02:23 GMT -7
Seeing how there are gyms that do take seriously training and assisting climbers to train hard and realistically, it would be interesting to have a thread where good gyms are highlighted. Somewhere where interested trainees can look up where they might be able to traing with proper holds, a good campus, a set of hangboards, etc
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sr
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by sr on Jan 12, 2015 13:07:32 GMT -7
I am a SLC local and there has been an evolution in gym development over the last decade. Check out the Quarry in Provo and Momentum, Sandy for early editions and you can see the progression to meet the market needs. Recently, Momentum opened up the Lehi gym which also incorporates the training area for both climbing specific drills (campus, hb, system walls) and a cross-fit type area with weights and kettlebells.
I would agree with the above that the average gym climber climbs 5.10ish and most of them are not pushing to train. I spoke to someone this summer about a new gym, she is opening and she is not planning on a training area b/c of the lack of interest from the market base. Instead, she was considering yoga classes.
Another consideration is the owner. One of the owners and visionary behind the Momentum brand climbed sport13+, put up numerous FAs and highly values training for progression into the harder grades.
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