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Post by jetjackson on Jan 12, 2019 19:22:57 GMT -7
Up to Chapter 5 after an afternoon and evening of reading - this one is shorter and the ink doesn't cover much of the book. So I think this will move fairly fast. Spoilers ahead... if this is the kind of book you can really spoil. I'll just cover off on first 2 chapters for now.
Chapter 1 - This is really just Bassham's story, and a bit of a sales pitch as to his qualifications and experience, ergo, his authority, as an expert on the topic.
Chapter 2 -
Pretty early on, you read Mental Management with a registered trademark next to it - to be honest, my bs alarm bells go off pretty quick when I see this kind of thing. Registering a trademark is pretty easy, and it doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. In my early 20s entrepreneurial days I think I registered a few pointless trademarks and it only cost something like $50 each. Basically like registering a domain.
Bassham introduces his MM system as a three part system, a trinity, so to speak. It seems feasible to me, and makes sense, conscious, sub-conscious and self-image. However, it does off the bat seem a touch pseudoscience, I followed up with a google, and I don't see any qualifications on the part of Bassham in psychology or something related that would suggest that this theory is backed up with a solid foundation of study in the field. I'm not going to write it off on that, he seems like the kind of person who could be well self-taught, and there is evidence of himself and others successfully using the 'system' - Moffat included.
He goes on to define the three area - one that I find most interesting is the discussion around self-image, and how this affects performance. Moffat displayed significant self-confidence, and if you have listened to the interview I did with Kim Carrigan (shameless plug) he had the theory of how people saw themselves in the hierarchy of the climbing community and how that effected their performance. That is somewhat related to this self-image idea. Certainly Carrigan had a strong self-image. Notably his point about arriving in Yosemite and being a 'Bumbly' but seeing the best climbers in the world as his peers, to which he pretty quickly caught up to.
Personally, I don't see myself (yet) as a very bold climber, and perhaps I need to work on that aspect of my self-image in order to improve my performance. I think my physical strength outweighs my current 'on the rock' ability on sport routes... certainly on trad routes. In the past, when I first started climbing, I didn't see myself as a potentially strong climber, I used to google, which I think I have noted on here, things like "what percentage of people can climb 5.12" etc. over a couple of years, my self-image slowly changed until I consider myself a progressing climber, with the potential to maybe project and send a 5.14a one day. Honestly though, part of that is having examples such as Anderson Bros, who, although starting in their early 20s (correct I think?) and have continually progressed into 5.14+ (so following a similar pattern, perhaps I can break into lower end 5.14 if I stay committed. Other examples that I base off, having started at age 30, are Chuck Odette and other late starters, who continued to push their climbing well into their 50s and 60s.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 13, 2019 13:56:26 GMT -7
Have you read the Rock Warriors Way? I haven't started this one yet(I will tonight?), but based on your description it sounds very similar. At least he covers that trinity pretty thoroughly from the Freudian(?) perspective.
I completely agree with this idea that you have to believe yourself to be good enough. Under-valuing myself has been a regular barrier to my development. At the same time, that lack of self-esteem has provided ~20 years of drive to keep my training and trying hard. If I thought I was the shit I'd probably stop improving.
Anyway, I've found progressive training has helped me overcome that lack of belief by providing little bits of evidence each (training or climbing) day that I'm slightly better than I thought I was when I woke up. After I experience that enough times in a season I can eventually believe myself able to climb the next harder grade. And so on.
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Post by Chris W on Jan 13, 2019 18:14:13 GMT -7
I don't think it's very similar to the Rock Warrior's Way. I feel like the Rock Warrior's Way helps you address certain climbing situations. With Winning In Mind helps you change the way you think and act so that you put yourself in a different situation altogether. I don't think one is better than the other; just different. With Winning In Mind seems to address my specific mental pathology a bit more directly.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 14, 2019 10:43:37 GMT -7
Read ch 1 last night and part of ch2. I didn’t find his bragging to be terribly obnoxious; I’d rather know a writer’s credentials in plain terms. I really like (and related to) his mini rant about how his book is not based on scientific theory, it’s based on real life experience. I really appreciate/prefer that. I have no interest in what Malcom Gladwell thinks about sports performance Although, I thought it was kinda funny that with essentially no mental training he got the Silver medal on his first try. Still, it sounds like he did a lot of research to get from Silver to gold, and we can benefit from that even if he seemed to get 99.999% of the way there without it.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 15, 2019 8:26:45 GMT -7
Finished Part 1 last night. I still dig it but I have yet to see how it’s substantially different from Rock Warriors Way. Definitely shorter, more concise and simpler to read though.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 18, 2019 15:15:56 GMT -7
I'm now through Chapter 10/Section 2. I really like this book and I think any climber who cares about performance could benefit from it. It definitely distinguished itself from the RWW in the last section. I would still argue they are based on the same fundamental concepts--quieting the conscious mind, leveraging the sub-conscious, and managing Ego (aka Self Image)--however, this book is much more to the point and does a great job of providing and actionable "program." Other thoughts: -It's really easy to see the link between this book and Moffatt's Mastermind (or even the comp chapters of Revelations). When Jerry writes things like "It's just like me pull this route out of the bag" it's almost a direct quote of Lanny. -As far as changing the Self Image (Ch. 4 pp 35-37), I think training is huge here, like I said up-thread. That process of convincing yourself you are better than you used to be has been essential to my success. I think others use route pyramids and the like more for this process, taking baby steps on the rock--I've certainly heard elite climbers say how its really important to get on a roll, get some good sends under their belt before they try such and such. I just don't have the time to send X number of hard routes before I try the next grade. I have to convince myself on plastic, and maybe that's why record keeping is so much more important to me than it is to other climbers. Also I'm pretty skeptical about everything--I need data to be convinced. -His discussion on positivity really hit home with me (Ch. 4 ~page 39/40 & Ch 7). In short, he says not only should you never talk negatively, you should avoid others who do. I tend not to talk much at the crag, and I think besides general introversion, I've found through the years that lots of climbers just complain endlessly. I don't want hear about how its too cold/hot/windy/humid, or your skin is too dry/moist/split/thin/glassy, blah, blah, blah. It can be really hard to maintain a positive mindset when you're surrounded by all that whining.... So if you ever see me at the crag, keep you whining to yourself or I'll tune you out -In the above section he also talks about how he just immediately forgets any bad performance. Mastermind talks a lot about this too. This is totally backwards from how I was taught--you should analyze your mistakes, figure out how to correct them, etc. The engineer in me thinks that there must be room for analyzing the mistakes, but maybe you need to pick the right time and place. Or, maybe the technical upside of correcting something is not worth the mental downside of fixating on a bad performance. This is something I need to experiment with, because a lot of my film study and journal entries are focused on the mistakes I made (granted, in a constructive way). -Section 2 talks a lot about "focus on the process and the results will take care of themselves" This is essentially identical to the RWW. -I like his take on Goal-Setting. First he recommends only setting goals for things you can control, like the quality of your performance rather than whether or not you win (also the same as RWW). I perhaps need to make a correction here because I tyupically use two types of goals for a given crag day; goals that I can control (like "attempt to figure out beta at 3rd bolt" and what I call "performance goals," like, "link from 3rd to 5th bolt." I also like his discussion of attainment vs. achievement, and it reminds me of the idea in the RCTM about do you want to be a 5.12 climber or climb a single route graded 5.12? Finally, I like that he doesn't like time limits on goals. Specifically he mentions setting the goal of winning a tournament in the next 2 years, with the idea that it takes the pressure off (joke for those reading ahead: but is that a good thing?, LOL). I definitely do that with redpointing--I hate having a deadline. Although, seriously, maybe that's a bad thing. Often when I have a deadline I rise to the occasion and get it done. Anyway, I'm working an FA now that I really want to do now, but realistically in the long run, nobody will care when I did it, only that I did (well, assuming anyone cares at all, haha). -On visualization, most of this was old hat, but I liked his example of visualizing breaking the shooting record, and visualizing how he would react when he realized he was above the record. I do a bit of this--visualizing how I will feel if I get through the crux--but I think I could do better here. His story of shooting only 6 days in 2 years, both spent winning titles, is incredible. Makes me think I could make better use of my off seasons. -Ch 8 is great and the real "meat" if you just want an actionable plan. I wrote a lot of notes in the margins here, thinking about the similarities/differences between climbing and shooting/golf, and trying to develop a good mental program for my current project. I think Dynos are the most similar, but they are also often the cruxes or at least common fall points, so I plan to start with developing a good mental program for dynos. -The "Over-trying" stuff really made me think (specifically thinking about CH.9 page 94 where he talks about Low vs High exceitement sports, and all of Ch 10). I had to think through different performances and think about it quite a bit, but I came to the conclusion that this idea of "trying really hard" as a climber is debatable. Basically he says, trying really hard might be the thing to do to win a 100 yd dash, but there are other activities where over-trying is detrimental. I was unsure at first but I think it really depends on the route, or even the specific move on the route. For Shadowboxing, I somewhat notoriously ranted about trying super-duper hard in order to get the send. However, I think I never could have sent To Bolt Or Not To Be by "trying really hard"--in fact I sent that route when I wasn't expecting to and I think my low-key attitude was a huge factor in my send. My conclusion is that the closer you get to a raw power effort, the more "trying hard" makes sense, but the closer you get to a finesse situation, the more detrimental "trying hard" becomes. The challenge is that climbing is rarely one thing or the other, so we need to cultivate the ability to transition between subconscious flow and trying super f-ing hard, often many times within a single redpoint. I'm going to need to work on that! For page numbering, note I have the 3rd edition.
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Post by rockmoose on Jan 18, 2019 16:40:51 GMT -7
Great post Mark. I wasn't sure whether I was going to get this book, as I have both Mastermind, and Rock Warriors Way, and didn't know if this would give me any extra value.
I will order it after work today. 👍👍
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Post by Chris W on Jan 19, 2019 6:06:24 GMT -7
Wow, lots of good thoughts! I'll weigh in more in the near future, but the kids are vomiting right now.
I did a bit of a double take when I read the section about bad performances as well. I think with climbing, we have to analyze "bad performances" a bit more than you would in something like shooting. It's clear to me that I tend to focus too much on them, but I think the key is HOW you focus on them. Instead of seeing it as a "bad" performance, it may be more appropriate to view it as simply a "performance". Instead of saying "I was bad, how can I be better", it may be better to say "I performed, how can I improve or refine".
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Post by MarkAnderson on Jan 19, 2019 9:48:08 GMT -7
Both great points.
I’m often skeptical, to the point of being dismissive, when it comes to adapting advice from other sports. So I’m already inclined to ignore this type of input, arguing that “shooting isn’t climbing.” But at some point I realized this is really just my ego trying to resist any kind of change or discomfort. So for this exercise I’m trying to be extra open-minded and fairly consider everything. Still, I spend a lot time pausing to contemplate to what extent various points or examples translate to climbing. (With that in mind, i think there’s a good opportunity to adapt this kind of book for climbers, which of course Jerry tried to do with Mastermind, but I think that effort could be improved upon.)
I think you are onto something with evaluating performance. Certainly shooting is much less complex and insanely repetitive compared to climbing.
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Post by Chris W on Jan 22, 2019 4:15:51 GMT -7
With regards to over-trying, I believe he's referring more to a state of mind than actual mental or physical effort. In the Bouldering chapter of the RCTM, you talk about arousal levels needed for bouldering. I believe you can have 100% effort with 100% arousal without "over-trying". I think that's an important distinction.
This fall, I crushed my previous PB onsite by climbing onsite a sketchy 12c slab route (granted, I'm good at slabs). I believe I still put in 100% effort and "try-hard", but my mental and physical arousal levels were different.
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Post by jetjackson on Jan 22, 2019 15:56:48 GMT -7
Read ch 1 last night and part of ch2. I didn’t find his bragging to be terribly obnoxious; I’d rather know a writer’s credentials in plain terms. FWIW, when I describe the first chapter as a sales pitch, I don't necessarily see that as a negative thing, being a sales manager in my day job I'm up to around Chapter 8 now - the last chapter I read was on the the pre, current and post phases of a performance. The overtrying thing is interesting to me - I noted this in my other thread about my current project, reflecting on the possibility that I'm bringing too much arousal to the redpoint crux. I wonder if I just 'think' it's going to be hard and so I put in too much energy and then gas out as a result. I feel I'm going to end up re-reading this book for it to settle in properly.
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Post by jetjackson on Feb 4, 2019 19:52:57 GMT -7
Not sure what chapter I'm up to, but last night I read the part where he discusses the 'Direct Affirmation' process for changing self-image. I sat there with pen and paper reading through the chapter, trying to write out my own DA statement. The one in the book was on the basis of the basketball player who saw himself as a poor free-thrower, and his DA statement starts with "I am the best free-thrower on the team."
One of my issues is that I don't think of myself as a very strong climber mentally, as per the previous comments I've made in this thread. However, how do I make a statement about that as a positive identity linked to some kind of reference point - I don't have a 'team' and I'm not sure what you call a confident leader? A bold leader. Perhaps I'll settle out with something like "I am a 5.13 climber. I judge risk well and bring my focus back to my movement when it wanders. It's like me to be able to calm my nerves quickly when they stray. I fight hard for the send and maintain focus and technique during run-outs."
This reminds me though, of Dave McLeods recent video on YouTube about mental training. He criticises historic mental training for sports, particularly the idea that positive thinking causes positive performance. He believes that construes the direction of causality and that really positive results cause positive attitude. That one should be working to be able to perform under any mental state - positive, or negative, rather than worrying about trying to bring about a positive state pre-performance. You can find it on his YT channel - I can't link it at the moment.
In his video he mockingly makes positive statements such as the above, in front of the mirror in the bathroom, and then laughs about it. In another interview we does with Neil Gresham - Neil comments on the futility of trying to pursue a positive mental state pre-performance.
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Post by Chris W on Feb 5, 2019 4:41:28 GMT -7
You could argue that McLeod and Gresham are still following a protocol similar to With Winning in Mind. Instead of saying to themselves 'I will have a positive mental disposition and perform well' they are saying 'I will perform well regardless of my mental disposition, because my performance has nothing to do with my mental disposition'.
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Post by MarkAnderson on Feb 5, 2019 17:14:21 GMT -7
I’ve seen the DM/NG video, and I agree with Chris. Neil is making the point that historically, he’s sent projects in every imaginable mental state, so it’s silly to fret over your mental state on a given performance day. Instead remind yourself that you can send in any mental state, because you have before, and stop worrying about it.
That’s somewhat different from Lannys method but it’s really the same concept— like when he’s shooting in the snow for the first time, and basically just decides the weather is irrelevant.
Regarding DMs point about positive performance leads to positive thought, that’s where training can be huge for your mental state. A season of training can be used as a series of positive mental performances. So for your affirmation, you could say something like “no one in my crew trains smarter than me, nobody works harder than me in the gym, no one cares more for their skin, diet, recovery. I’ve earned this send and I’m ready for this route...”
Although I must say, I don’t see the value in comparison to other climbers unless you’re trying to win a comp. You’re really “competing” against yourself (I also don’t like the idea that you are competing against the rock, anymore that a swimmer is competing against the water or a runner against the track).
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Post by jetjackson on Feb 5, 2019 20:03:47 GMT -7
“no one in my crew trains smarter than me, nobody works harder than me in the gym, no one cares more for their skin, diet, recovery. I’ve earned this send and I’m ready for this route...” I like that, I'll use a variation of that.
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